Waiting for UAW shoe to drop?

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Love2Cyber

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Diehard

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Your initial statement about "like a limb" is why they are appropriately paid. No - they are not paying for a monkey with a coin. they have tenuous circumstances to navigate
I am not sure how you equate them losing a limb to using their golden parachute. They are paid for the decisions they make and you can set up a monkey or a few lines of code to make those decisions. The fact that circumstances are complex, or CEOs are often smart people or the outcome has significant impact on many people does not change that. Head of any organization usually have people equally or smarter than themselves do the research and analysis on those complex circumstances and present options to them. The high pay is associated with the ’risk’ and ‘responsibility’ associated with making a selection between those choices where in fact often there is less risk to them in losing millions for bad performance than it is for a UAW worker as head of the household going on strike missing a mortgage payment.

How the "monkey with a coin" navigates overpaying the saps in the UAW while lagging the world's evolution to EV is why they are paid to make the magic happen
Monkey pressing the return key on chat GTP and producing a random text and sending it to UAW three times would get exactly the same results CEOs have achieved so far.

That said - I say - let them all strike and let's make these iphones in China. Assembling cars is not an intellectual exercise....and will not make us a global superpower.
It is obvious you think an assembly line worker is more disposable than you because you use your brain and they use their muscles. I wonder what you would say in a few years when your brain is just as easily replaced with a robot as their muscles.

My general argument is not taking sides for the companies or UAW. I am just saying our value system in not based on actual contribution to society and that is screwed up. A cat video on YouTube entertains just as much or more than LeBron James. Does he really contribute as much as the guy in a lab working on the next battery tech? CEOs may be contributing a bit more than basketball players but not a whole lot more (Musk may be an exception).
 

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I am just saying our value system in not based on actual contribution to society and that is screwed up. A cat video on YouTube entertains just as much or more than LeBron James. Does he really contribute as much as the guy in a lab working on the next battery tech? CEOs may be contributing a bit more than basketball players but not a whole lot more (Musk may be an exception).
IF pay were based on contribution to society, then teachers would drive Bentleys and Sports figures would be at minimum wage. Cops and Firefighters would live in mansions, and movie actors would be paid in popcorn. But we don't. We pay people more on revenue generation and what it takes to attract a level of talent that each job needs, either augmented or diminished by the supply of available people to meet that demand.
 

LoneWolfO6

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Dump billions into the pool, and they still strike?! So, many years ago when I belonged to a union, I made $3.75 a hour and paid 1/3 check to the union. These workers are making $60-$90 a hour and want more? Unions are going to be the downfall/bankrupt our nation with future bailouts.

Tesla Cybertruck Waiting for UAW shoe to drop? IMG_2026
 
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rudedawg78

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Dump billions into the pool, and they still strike, years ago when I belonged to a union, I made $3.75 a hour and never strikes. These workers are making $60-$90 a hour? Unions are going to be the downfall/bankrupt our nation with future bailouts.

IMG_2026.jpeg
I would love to get a 6 percent annual raise. Wow!
 


Diehard

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Dump billions into the pool, and they still strike?! So, many years ago when I belonged to a union, I made $3.75 a hour and paid 1/3 check to the union. These workers are making $60-$90 a hour and want more? Unions are going to be the downfall/bankrupt our nation with future bailouts.

IMG_2026.jpeg
Is this 40% vs 6%? Or 10%vs 6%? I know government employees that never got more than 3% raise. Many years nothing at all and some with pay cut. Of course inflation was never what it is these days.
 
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Love2Cyber

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Is this 40% vs 6%? Or 10%vs 6%? I know government employees that never got more than 3% raise. Many years nothing at all and some with pay cut. Of course inflation was never what it is these days.
Here's an idea - let's not examine their contract details and what is "fair" to people who we do not know and whose contracts we don't understand and encourage them to leave their jobs if not happy. Tesla is hiring. If you don't like what you're paid - leave - that's the definition of an empowered labor force. Stop whining - work or leave.
 

Diehard

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Here's an idea - let's not examine their contract details and what is "fair" to people who we do not know and whose contracts we don't understand and encourage them to leave their jobs if not happy. Tesla is hiring. If you don't like what you're paid - leave - that's the definition of an empowered labor force. Stop whining - work or leave.
It is customary to give your employer a chance to give you a raise before you leave. That is what workers are doing using their leverage (numbers). But they could price themselves out of the market if they push too hard by making robots more attractive. I think any raise should be in form of profit sharing so during the down turn and low profitability the company expenses are automatically adjusted.
 

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Paying 16,000 plus workers $28 per hour who are not on salary is fair. Everyone can’t be paid as one or two CEO’s. Get real! Equal greed will not be solved by striking! Costing your golden goose billions a day is not the answer, only leads to layoffs and bankruptcy down the road.

CBS News (2023)

In general, factory workers are not salaried, but receive an hourly wage. On average, U.S. autoworkers on manufacturing production lines earned about $28 an hour in August, up $1 from the previous year, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
 

LoneWolfO6

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Here's an idea -Tesla is hiring. If you don't like what you're paid - leave - that's the definition of an empowered labor force. Stop whining - work or leave.
Yep stop the sobbing and become a millionaire in stock options working for Tesla!
 


Sirfun

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I am not sure how you equate them losing a limb to using their golden parachute. They are paid for the decisions they make and you can set up a monkey or a few lines of code to make those decisions. The fact that circumstances are complex, or CEOs are often smart people or the outcome has significant impact on many people does not change that. Head of any organization usually have people equally or smarter than themselves do the research and analysis on those complex circumstances and present options to them. The high pay is associated with the ’risk’ and ‘responsibility’ associated with making a selection between those choices where in fact often there is less risk to them in losing millions for bad performance than it is for a UAW worker as head of the household going on strike missing a mortgage payment.



Monkey pressing the return key on chat GTP and producing a random text and sending it to UAW three times would get exactly the same results CEOs have achieved so far.



It is obvious you think an assembly line worker is more disposable than you because you use your brain and they use their muscles. I wonder what you would say in a few years when your brain is just as easily replaced with a robot as their muscles.

My general argument is not taking sides for the companies or UAW. I am just saying our value system in not based on actual contribution to society and that is screwed up. A cat video on YouTube entertains just as much or more than LeBron James. Does he really contribute as much as the guy in a lab working on the next battery tech? CEOs may be contributing a bit more than basketball players but not a whole lot more (Musk may be an exception).
I'm of the impression. That pay is (roughly) based on what the company can make from the labor of that employee. If you work in a business that has tight margins and doesn't make much money from the work you perform, how can you expect that business to pay you well? But, if you're making them lots of money. Then of course you're going to expect to get paid more. In this current situation with OEM auto companys. They have very little ability to get more money for their products. And I find it highly doubtful the CEO's are going to take a pay cut. So, how much more money can they really expect to make?
 

Diehard

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And I find it highly doubtful the CEO's are going to take a pay cut. So, how much more money can they really expect to make?
I think that is the heart of the problem. The assembly line worker looks at the CEO’s job and have the same amount of respect for it as CEO has for assembly line work. The worker thinks, I am breaking my back day in and day out and actually make these trucks and cars that generates the profit for the company. I AM the company and I have problem making ends meet. He thinks CEO is sitting on her tush doing nothing of value and making millions. Now that we are making more profit because of my work, they not only give the money that belongs to me to the CEO. They give even a more percentage increase (in case of GM) to the CEO.

CEO thinks the same way, all the extra profit is because of my genius and hard work. These greedy disposable morons don’t understand how lucky they are they have not been replaced by a robot yet.

I think this disconnect is partly about justice and fairness for workers and less about whether the math will work. The workers see the heads of the company as their enemy more than their team mate and think if being greedy is good for the CEO, it is good for me. Either I get justice or I will burn the company to the ground. Even if head of the union is not thinking that, he definitely makes sure he looks like he does so he can push the negotiations to the limit.

Although I understand in a capitalist free market, why things work the way they do, I still sympathize with the worker a bit more than CEO. I have always been in the lower part of middle class and never felt like I needed more to be happy. In a world that some kid that contributes nothing can make more than the CEO off of crypto currency or speculation on stock market, $29 million annual salary of the CEO may not sound like much but when you think about it, this the same world in which many work just as hard as the CEO and have their children go to bed hungry. The size of the gap between the extreme wealth and extreme poverty is the problem and the fact that number of folks at the unpleasant end is much higher than the pleasant end makes me wonder how long the minority can keep the gravy train going. Frankly, I am impressed it has gone this long. Then again, when I look at places like North Korea, Iran or Russia, the minority have always had a way of holding on.

Edit: all that said, timing of this really sucks for OEMs. They are already at a disadvantage because they don’t have the volume Tesla and BYD have. They don’t have efficiency in manufacturing and business model and if China is subsidizing BYD more that is another disadvantage. I have heard China spend $60 B subsidizing their EV industry. Not sure how much U.S. has spent on tax credits and other forms of subsidies. Increasing the cost of labor while the production is interrupted by strikes may force them to ask for bailout again. Workers are afraid EVs may take away their jobs and in process of freaking out, they may expedite the whole thing.
 
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PilotPete

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Although I understand in a capitalist free market, why things work the way they do, I still sympathize with the worker a bit more than CEO. I have always been in the lower part of middle class and never felt like I needed more to be happy. In a world that some kid that contributes nothing can make more than the CEO off of crypto currency or speculation on stock market, $29 million annual salary of the CEO may not sound like much but when you think about it, this the same world in which many work just as hard as the CEO and have their children go to bed hungry. The size of the gap between the extreme wealth and extreme poverty is the problem and the fact that number of folks at the unpleasant end is much higher than the pleasant end makes me wonder how long the minority can keep the gravy train going. Frankly, I am impressed it has gone this long. Then again, when I look at places like North Korea, Iran or Russia, the minority have always had a way of holding on.
In a true fair market society, the worker makes whatever the market dictates. By that I mean, if you want $30/hr for your time and effort, and Bob wants $25/hr, then I would hire Bob and you’re time is still not being used. This is why trash collectors make better money (in general) than do McDonalds burger flippers. Same is true with CEOs. This “38%” raise is just propaganda on the part of the Union. (And before you brand me as “anti-union”, well, guess again. I spent 36 years as a Union member, 4 years as a Local President, and a Labor Law certification from the George Meany Center For Labor Studies @ The National Labor College. And twice I have helped start a national union.) The CEOs pay is performance based. So she made more money because she improved the bottom line for the shareholders. The workers have profit sharing as well, but they aren’t considering that as part of their salary. So, they want guaranteed wages, and the CEO is performance based income. Apples and oranges. Fact: you have a greater potential for additional income if you base your salary on performance, as long as the company becomes more profitable. You have a greater potential based on hourly if the company is stagnant or dwindling, regardless of your title.

And the “wealth gap” is not growing. If you look at the past 100 years in most western countries, the number of people in the “Poverty” class is shrinking. The number of people in the “Lower” class is shrinking. The “Middle” class is growing, as is the “Upper Middle” class. Now, as a previous Union member (I’m generally self-employed now) I am amazed at what the UAW has been able to accomplish. But I think they may be getting close to strangling the golden goose this time. I don’t see a net positive decade ahead for the big 3. I think we are about to see the late 70s-80s reformation in that industry. Back then they got their butts handed to them by the Japanese manufacturers building a product that was more of what the customer wanted, and better built. Those that don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it…
 

Diehard

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In a true fair market society, the worker makes whatever the market dictates. By that I mean, if you want $30/hr for your time and effort, and Bob wants $25/hr, then I would hire Bob and you’re time is still not being used. This is why trash collectors make better money (in general) than do McDonalds burger flippers. Same is true with CEOs. This “38%” raise is just propaganda on the part of the Union. (And before you brand me as “anti-union”, well, guess again. I spent 36 years as a Union member, 4 years as a Local President, and a Labor Law certification from the George Meany Center For Labor Studies @ The National Labor College. And twice I have helped start a national union.) The CEOs pay is performance based. So she made more money because she improved the bottom line for the shareholders. The workers have profit sharing as well, but they aren’t considering that as part of their salary. So, they want guaranteed wages, and the CEO is performance based income. Apples and oranges. Fact: you have a greater potential for additional income if you base your salary on performance, as long as the company becomes more profitable. You have a greater potential based on hourly if the company is stagnant or dwindling, regardless of your title.

And the “wealth gap” is not growing. If you look at the past 100 years in most western countries, the number of people in the “Poverty” class is shrinking. The number of people in the “Lower” class is shrinking. The “Middle” class is growing, as is the “Upper Middle” class. Now, as a previous Union member (I’m generally self-employed now) I am amazed at what the UAW has been able to accomplish. But I think they may be getting close to strangling the golden goose this time. I don’t see a net positive decade ahead for the big 3. I think we are about to see the late 70s-80s reformation in that industry. Back then they got their butts handed to them by the Japanese manufacturers building a product that was more of what the customer wanted, and better built. Those that don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat it…
I agree with most of what you said with a few notes:

Car manufacturers often compete globally and you can't really have a "true fair market" as long as you have borders. Why else Tesla would be looking at building a plant south of the border? Question becomes if it is OK to make the market unfair through artificial means (like borders) why not make it unfair through other means (give me $30/hr because I am a union member and Bob $25/hr because he is not) or make it unfair because CEO is selling 8 hrs of her time using her brain and I sell 8 hrs of my time selling my brain and my muscles (I am sure brain people will argue their value but that value is not inherent and subject to change) .

As far as CEOs income is performance based; keep in mind even if only $2 million of $29 million Barra made last year was the base salary, she would not sleep on the street if she does not perform because she only made $2 million. I am sure all those workers would be fine with a performance based structure with a base of $100K/year. I am not convinced that a genius college graduate that would be happy with $200K a year salary sitting in Barra's chair with the same information she gets can not perform as well. In other words her value is likely overblown by folks that overestimate their own value.

Regarding the gap. I didn't look at past 100 years but in my life time, this is what I see:

Tesla Cybertruck Waiting for UAW shoe to drop? 1695077416949


https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-in-income-and-wealth-inequality/

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/09/income-inequality-increased.html

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying everyone should make the same regardless of what they contribute. I am saying it should be proportional to their contribution with a cap and we should measure that contribution a little better (not that I know exactly the best way to do it but I am fairly sure someone smarter than me that is not in it for herself/himself can do it).

These are mostly my philosophical views on the topic. In practical sense, big three may have to figure out how to do what Elon is doing (reduce parts and people) to survive.
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