Foundation Series Remorse

[sammy5001]

Is anyone else having serious concerns/remorse on the foundation series range? I completed my down payment Christmas eve, and since have been seeing range tests maxing out around 250 miles on the freeway.

I currently have a 2022 Model S long range (405 mile range) and have done the trip Milwaukee to New Orleans. All went well and I felt 400 miles was enough to comfortably stop and recharge every 3-4 hours.

I was planning to use the CyberTruck to travel to Florida frequently. Having to stop every 2 hours kind of changes the dynamic of the trip.

Do you think we have anyway of getting out the 1k down payment considering the range seems to not be what was advertised?

ABRP shows for Milwaukee to New Orleans

for Cybertruck (EPA 320mi) - total 16h 33mins - 2hr 50min charging over 9 charges

for Model X LR (my current ride, EPA 335mi) - total 15hr 28mins - 2h 49min charging over 8 charges

for Tesla Model S LR (EPA 402mi) - total 15hr 19mins - 2hr 16min charging over 4 charges

Given the similarity of EPA between the MX and CT, I'm expecting that most roadtrips with the CT will be similar to my MX. The example above though shows almost the same total charging time but huge difference in total travel time because of that one extra charging station (Jonesboro) being totally out of the way. Other than exceptional cases like these, my analysis show that the CT EPA is pretty legit in the sense that real world roadtrip performance is comparable to the MX which has a similar EPA.

So if you're gonna compare roadtrip performance you really should be comparing it with the MX and not the MS-LR, which has an EPA of 402mi. I mean you wouldn't compare roadtrip performance of the MS-LR with the MX-LR wouldn't you? Probably not, then why would you compare MS-LR with CT?

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[jookyone]

TL;DR

If you think EPA is bad, check out NEDC or WLTP ratings. You'd never know what type efficiency you have.

 

[jookyone]

TL;RA (read anyway)
Range depends heavily on regen as part of the calculation. Most of the time in city or short urban, I am one pedal driving like a golf cart (2023 MX LR). Never touch the brakes. A non-regen 70mph "hot lap" isn't representative of overall range. That being said, I road trip a LOT and have about 500k miles in Teslas (humble brag). I've run out of juice exactly twice on the same trip: Towing a car on a trailer in the winter from CO to OH in a 2016 MX 90D that had an EPA rated range of 257 miles. One was 6 miles, one was 100yds, nothing more embarrassing but I'm stubborn.

If speed is your road trip priority, seriously get out of a Tesla or accept that BEVs just take longer.

"But it's a little bit longer than long."

Get a Prius.

 

[MC1987]

I really started this thread just to understand my options and of course get a different point of view than what I have been harboring internally. Thanks for everyone's feedback it definitely gave me a few different perspectives. Also please share if Tesla offers options when inquiring on your own personal deposit.

Few things about any general testing:
1- always have to have a baseline. What this really means is you need to drive another car with known credible results at the same time with car in question. I don’t know why they couldn’t just rented a rivian r1t and run it. It would certainly be more accurate
2- record operating condition
3- collect data
4- repeat 1-3 atleast 3/4 times to account for variations.
For the range test that you are referring to, only had 2 and 3, 1 & 4 are crucial to extract any reliable information out of the test. I watched the video and even the tester mentioned it in the end. I think the idea of the test was to give everyone an idea. It may truly be worse but you can say that with certainty.

I too am disappointed with this result but for my personal usecase, i can’t go beyond 200miles before taking a break anyway so it really doesn’t change much. I am hoping they would update the max cap to a higher value and the charging curve to be faster. Both of these have high chance of being real. That is probably the reason the FS was initially released to Tesla employees so that they can resolve some of these real world use case issues.
My two cent.

 

[cvalue13]

I just feel like there's got to be a better way to list the mileage of an electric vehicle for the average person.

it is, statistically

because statistically, the following is an exceedingly rare drive:

So flat highway, no other cars in your way, minimal starts and stops

that drive, where range limitations are relevant, is called eg a “road trip”

The average American drives 29 miles per day (all ages), and 37mi/day for those between 30-49 years old, or 13mi/yr. To achieve that milage in average, comes mostly from commuting, which is almost nowhere/never “flat highway, no other cars in your way, minimal starts and stops,” but instead “city” or “hey” conditions, as reflected in the EPA tests.

Other relevant data:

• Drivers who reported living “in the country” or “a small town” drive greater distances (12,264 miles annually) and spend a greater amount of time driving than people who described living in a “medium sized town” or city (9,709 miles annually).
• Motorists in the South drive the most (11,826 miles annually), while those in the Northeast drive the least (8,468 miles annually).
• On average, Americans drive fewer miles on the weekend than on weekdays.
• Americans drive, on average, the least during winter months (January through March) at 25.7 miles daily; they drive the most during the summer months (July through September) at 30.6 miles daily.

*this* is why the EPA uses the standards it does. To address the vast majority of use case. Because it’s supposed to be the most useful standard to the most amount of people.

which, not incidentally, is why EV makersbuild the cars they way they do.




So, to suggest that the EPA should instead create a range estimate based on sustained “ flat highway, no other cars in your way, minimal starts and stops” is to suggest they create a standard that is statistically meaningless to the vast majority of drivers the vast majority of time. And for car companies to build a car that is functionally meaningless to the vast majority of drivers the vast majority of the time.

What it really amounts to: the most vocal voices pounding the table here either (1) have fringe-usecases, or (2) are merely expressing an only perceived dread borne of historical tribalism (eg ICE vibes)


EPA ratings and their implications are obvious paying attention

BEV range variables and their implications are obvious to anyone paying attention

Being livid right now, largely indicates you’ve just not payed attention

It results in things like this - makes me feel like I’m taking crazy pills:

You’ve never seen a car list it’s highway mpg?

yes - AND THE DO FOR BEV’S, TOO, IN THE EXACT SAME WAY

IN FACT, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EPA RATINGS IN IVE VS BEV IS THAT FOR BEV’S THE EPA LISTS TOTAL RANGE AT ALL - SEE BELOW

Ice vehicles are less impacted by the variables mentioned in this thread so I’ve always found it a decent real world indication of range.

this just isn’t true

THESE VARIABLES ARE EFFECTIVELY IDENTICAL BETWEEN ICE AND BEV VEHICLES

here’s a Honda Accord

Notice for the Model S the delta between city and hwy rating is 8MPGe, or only 6.6% of its combined rating

Meanwhile, for the Accord, the delta between city and hwy rating is 8mpg, which is an incredible efficiency swing of 25%

Whether sedan or truck, these variables effect ICE and BEV’s the ~same.

same goes for trucks, towing, etc.

the only difference is that, with ICE, lazy people with enough money to not have to care about fuel costs have stopped paying attention for a decade or two

And with BEVs, the only functional differences are:

(1) BEV’s have smaller fuel tanks, and

(2) there is less “refueling” infrastructure


so now, with a BEV, even lazy people with enough money have to pay attention to energy effects of these variables that are ~identical with ICE cars but ignored/forgotten out of gluttony and abundance. Especially when it comes to trucks and towing.

DRIVING A BEV IN 2023 IS NO DIFFERENT THAN DRIVING ANY ICE VEHICLE IN THE 1980S WHEN FURL PRICES WERE STEEPER, GAS TANKS WERE SMALLER, AND REFUELING INFRASTRUCTURE WAS LESS DEVELOPED



Some of yall are seriously unhinged, or simply entirely uneducated in how fuel (including electricity) efficiency and driving variables relates to range - whether ICE or BEVs, paired with a ridiculous indigence that at bottom is the result not of other people’s misunderstandings, but your own various ignorances


the EPA figures work fine, as they always have. The EPA figures work the same as with ICE vehicles, as they always have. Range is effected by these variables the ~same between ICE and BEVs.

THE PROBLEM ISNT WITH THOSE THINGS, THE PROBLEM IS WITH YOUR EDUCATION AND UNDERSTANDING.

 

[Outdoors]

@cvalue13 That was the best explanation I have seen. Might just go save that so I can have that for my mind when I have to explain it to somebody. Keep me off the crazy ?s

 

[Deleted member 8371]

Was hoping I wouldn’t get the invite. Got it before Christmas, went all the way through but didn’t commit, saw some range numbers and decided I need to wait. $80k for the awd seems reasonable if the lockers work well and it’s real world 0-60 numbers are good, for less $ than a fs you could have the awd plus the range extender. But if you’ve got the cash, the truck will be sweet no matter what version. I just don’t NEED a vehicle right now, decided my model 3 will hold me over and I can withstand the fomo.
IF they had included the range extender with the fs, (real added value) or the fs cyberbeast had the 500 mile range originally promised, I’d have 100% pulled the trigger already.

I am not sure what to do either, I wanted the 500 range and a tailgate ramp that was all a big part of the love for the truck from the start, he made some promises he missed big time and they are not small promised by any means.. Now I have to really think about it and even look at other EV trucks on what they promise for the mileage. I will be travailing a lot, almost retired now. Maybe I will keep my diesel 2500 ram EX-Cab. Not sure yet.

 

[FarAway]

For the majority, you drive 30 minutes to work, you run some errands, you charge at home and don’t think about it. In my industry, there are thousands of us that drive 150-250 mile round trips weekly with no charging at work. That’s just California and one workgroup. I realize that’s not a significant number in the grand scheme, but to me those highway numbers are important.

I get it, and then try leaving your car parked in the DTW or MSP employee lot for 2 weeks (in Feb.) before returning.

Anyone know how long an EV can sit unattended and unplugged outdoors in the winter?

 

[CyberGus]

In my industry, there are thousands of us that drive 150-250 mile round trips weekly with no charging at work

Sounds like Tesla isn't the problem, your employer is

 

[Woodrick]

I am not sure what to do either, I wanted the 500 range and a tailgate ramp that was all a big part of the love for the truck from the start, he made some promises he missed big time and they are not small promised by any means.. Now I have to really think about it and even look at other EV trucks on what they promise for the mileage. I will be travailing a lot, almost retired now. Maybe I will keep my diesel 2500 ram EX-Cab. Not sure yet.

In your list the ONLY item that they missed is the tailgate ramp,

With the Battery Extender, they are effectively hitting the 500 mile number. And they are still trying to surpass it.

How many Detroit prototypes have come to fruition?

 

[Woodrick]

For the majority, you drive 30 minutes to work, you run some errands, you charge at home and don’t think about it. In my industry, there are thousands of us that drive 150-250 mile round trips weekly with no charging at work. That’s just California and one workgroup. I realize that’s not a significant number in the grand scheme, but to me those highway numbers are important.

And what does that have to do with the discussion?
Many employers are installing chargers. Just give them an excuse to do so. Heck, there are even some airports installing chargers for planes. And where are you going on the 250 mile round trip where you don't pass a Supercharger?

 

[CLAIRE]

Everything I have read about the Cyber truck prior to the delivery event seems to have been overly optimistic maybe I can go as far to say deceptive. I fully expected the final cost of the Cybertruck to be greater than originally stated given the current state of the economy. If "real world" range estimates were disclosed prior to the delivery event many people probably would have decided to not go through with their reservations. I would still be going ahead with my purchase If the mileage numbers came anywhere near the 300 mile mark but apparently this is not so.

" Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me"

 

[Laird Popkin]

I agree with you @OnTheSnap and others that have commented on this.

I think the FS tires are def the culprit here for what people perceive as a range drain.

Just curious and I’m far too lazy to look this up but wouldnt it be possible for people that order the FS series to swap the ATs out for All Season tires when they get the truck and then sell the AT’s? Are they a Tesla proprietary size?

Help my holiday hungover mind with this… haha

Right. The off-road tires have a 320 mile range EPA estimate, vs 340 for all-weather (street) tires. Add on to that the EPA test is a mix of (very efficient) city driving and 55 mph highway driving, while the "road test" was all 70 mph highway. Driving 70 mph vs 55 mph gives you 17% lower mileage, on either ICE or EV, due to the physics (wind resistance). Add those together, and you should expect to see almost exactly what the road test found.

If you need the range, use street tires and drive 55, and you'll get about the EPA range. Doing inefficient things and complaining about inefficiency doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[ideaXfactory]

I shouldn't probably post on a remorse thread, but agree the loss of the tailgate ramp was a blow. Elon at the delivery event, didn't mention that, or a 500 mile range, or even the price.

He is also a salesman in his own way, and salesman never likes to talk about what you aren't getting that was previously promised... Anyway, I'm still looking forward to getting it, and the (not promised) new rotation ability of the rear wheels is a plus that ALMOST makes up for it.

 

[Saygmo]

Right. The off-road tires have a 320 mile range EPA estimate, vs 340 for all-weather (street) tires. Add on to that the EPA test is a mix of (very efficient) city driving and 55 mph highway driving, while the "road test" was all 70 mph highway. Driving 70 mph vs 55 mph gives you 17% lower mileage, on either ICE or EV, due to the physics (wind resistance). Add those together, and you should expect to see almost exactly what the road test found.

If you need the range, use street tires and drive 55, and you'll get about the EPA range. Doing inefficient things and complaining about inefficiency doesn't make any sense to me.

The thing is, 200 vs 500 mile range is relatively meaningless on local trips where city range comes into play, because there are chargers everywhere. The only scenario where the range actually becomes an issue is when people are driving 150+ miles, in inclement weather, and on the freeway where you aren’t allowed to drive 55mph… 70mph is a minimum speed when the posted limit is 75-80mph on many highways that have 100+ miles between chargers.

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