Cheap Gas is ruining EV debate

[CyberGus]

I don't think we will run out. But we will get low, and the prices will spike, giving us that "final push".

My guess is that electrification will drive down demand, and thus price, to the point that lower profitability causes consolidation. (We would still pump oil even if there were zero cars, since it has other uses, but at far lower volumes.). This is decades in the future, mind you, so I don't need to worry about being wrong lol.

This consolidation will constrain supply until prices rise again. Eventually gas will become hard to find! "Oh noes, ICE range anxiety"

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[2000prerunner]

One thing that usually gets completely ignored in the EV versus gas debate for either street cars or pick up trucks is the fact that you can whale on them mercilessly with very minimal consequences.
For my model 3 performance, I have the least respect for that poor motor and battery and after 80,000 miles of driving it like I stole it. ..I only have 9% battery degradation and nothing else. Drive units perfectly fine. Do you understand what would happen to a BMW M3 if I was daily drag racing it from every stoplight for 5 years ? Do you understand how many service center visits I would’ve had for that poor car? Absolutely the transmission would’ve taken a dump by now. The valve train and turbo system would have required big repairs by now. There is no way you can disrespect a sports car like that every day for 80,000 miles like I have done with my Tesla and have zero consequence.
The same applies for a pick up truck. How many miles of hard towing do you think you can do before your F250 needs to be taken to the Ford dealer for a transmission rebuild? How many steep Highway grades can that transmission take while towing with all of that slip happening in the transmission ? Do you think the engine would like spinning 35 inch tires in the dirt too? How do you think the transfer case would’ve held up in low range shifting with thousands of off-road miles? The solenoid would probably be stuck in four low unable to shift back to 2 Wheel Dr. to get back home.
If you live in California, do you understand how screwed you would be with the smog or even warranty when you attempt to modify the engine? Check engine lights, failing smog and not being able to register your vehicle. sucks.
The most fragile and sensitive things ever invented are ICE cars. Especially when you drive them like you stole it. With an electric vehicle there is nearly 0 consequence to driving like a jackass except tire wear.


Oh yeah, don’t forget to weld on a special skid plates to protect your catalytic converters from getting cut out by crackheads…

 

[Hemi314]

Winter rate for me is $.09kwh, summer is $.14. So I’m way ahead.

You also have to do an apples to apples comparison. The CT is pretty similar to a Ram TRX in performance, which I have owned two of. Those trucks take premium fuel only and also get 9mpg. So even with higher rates, it’s cheaper to drive the CT, assuming you mostly charge at home.

You can’t compare the CT usage to a vehicle that runs on 87 octane.

 

[TyPope]

For the cybertruck specifically there was never a real gas edge.
Similar sized ICE truck costed about the same to gas up vs supercharge unfortunately.
Cheap gas now makes CT more expensive and M3 and MY about the same.

My F-150 got maybe 24 mpg. at $2.79/gal, that's $0.116 per mile.
My Cybertruck at 380w/mi and 11.852/Kwh means it costs me $0.0414 per mile.
For me, there IS a gas edge for having the Cybertruck. Also, since I put 25,000 miles in per year so far, $1,034 in electricity compared to $2,900 in gas for my F-150.

This is my reality. My CT saved me $1,866 in commuter costs. Oh, wait. minus $75 for the wiper so, $1,791 in commuter costs.

To be fair, I'm comparing my CT to my previous previous truck. My previous truck was actually a Ford Maverick Hybrid. I didn't compare to it because it's so tiny. But, in all transparency, here goes:

My Little Maverick got about 48mpg. That's $0.058125 per mile. So very close to my CT.

$0.058125 x 25,000 miles = $1,453 at which point, I'm only saving $344 per year. Yes, I counted replacing the BAW on my CT again.

Still, it's cheaper. PLUS, the Maverick did 0-60 in "Maybe next Tuesday".

Actually, it was a peppy little thing. I liked it a lot. Like, a lot a lot. It was fun to drive and comfortable for my 6'3" self. If it had a larger than 1.1KWh battery...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I still do not get why many of you are so focus on this EV vs Ice gas cost. There is so much more that goes into the equation than just Electric cost and gas/diesel cost. There is maintenance costs, what you prefer to drive, recalls if any is a issue also for some. How easy is it to get service may also come into pay for some. Is a repair shop if needed close or over a hour away may also be a person's concern.

Also the original cost of the vehicle be it a truck or car or SUV. In my case since I paid 33K OTD and I guess the lowest CT is around 70K there is no way with my driving amount I would ever make up that 36K I think for the life of me driving even for 10 years. And since I enjoy my Hybrid I am fine and it really exceeds my needs also.

So to me if you love the CT that's really great and if you are saving 5-10 cents a mile great also and enjoy. If someone has a ICE or Hybrid they like and sure it may cost more a bit per mile fine. If they like it and meets there needs great again.

I truly get that many of you are real EV people as I can see by some of you having 2 or even 3 other EV's in your description. I really am glad you are happy and doing well.

 

[TyPope]

I just do not get why many Tesla and CT's owners even worry or look at gas prices. FYI it is $2.23 at the local QT station this morning for me in Central Texas.

As I have said before, my Maverick Hybrid gets 48-52 MPG and I fill up each week for about $10-12. From the logs I can look at on mileage I use about 40% electric and 60% gas miles. The gas engine does not even kick in till I approach 25-30. So if I am doing a short trip and not much heavy highway driving my electric miles are more than the gas miles on that trip.

I guess if I had a CT or other Tesla the electric would be a bit cheaper and give you that point. Lets say just say it is $5-6 a week in charging, it just does not mean much to us to spend another $4-5 bucks a week via gas. That is about an extra $170-200 per year total in gas.

Just in case you all did not read my prior posts when we bought the Maverick (2024 XLT) it was $33K out the door including a 5 year/75,000 miles total maintenance plan that includes all filters, be it oil or air or whatever, windshield wipers, oil changes and any other routine maintenance including labor. I have been to my Ford dealer several times for the routine service needed and this is true, all my receipts with work done and parts has always been $0.00. That was one of our goals was to be free of general maintenance costs and have them wrapped up in the original price.

The only thing I pay out of my pocket is tires, gas, and stuff like a scented air freshener if we want one.

I think the CT and some other Tesla's are very good EV's but to me it is what the individual person likes and desires that counts.

I had a Maverick. It has a 1.1kwh HV battery. Unless you only roll downhill, you are spending a LOT more time on gas than you realize. I don't doubt the 48-52 mpg because I saw that as well. But, more than a mile or two on electric alone? Very unlikely. Now, if Ford would put say, a 10-20 KwH battery in there and make it a plug-in hybrid, they'd have something amazing.

 

[4 SPACE]

It's all about the convenience. I'm thinking of buying my 3rd Tesla I may get the final model X, I like the lifetime free super charging and the included FSD.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

TyPope I got no idea on the battery size you say the Mavrick has so not going to disagree as I do not know. I sure don't have any idea on how long it lasts mileage wise on electric only as never tried to run it down. I just know with my driving I never get any warning on low battery power or such from the readouts. We have had the Mav for 2 years now and it has satisfied all our needs and gas is never over $10 a week at most for a fill up. It just seems to sip with the drives we do.

 

[jimbobb23]

I'm only in it for FSD but gas has been amazingly cheap. When we ran the math on the costs of gas before getting our first EV I realized...hey gas really isn't that much. But EVs will win in the end as batteries get better and better because the whole experience is better.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

.06- .08 per kWh at home rate, ultra-off peak and off peak.

Accidentally charged during peak hours a week ago and got a $58 dollar demand charge

$110-125per month for gas (45mpg vehicle),
CT is $40-48 per month

Sadly I have solar at home but I am not home during the day to take advantage of free energy slurp

Don’t you have net metering? It should be cheaper to charge at night so the solar still provides all the potential energy savings, just not straight to the truck. Kwh are fungible, so your monthly bill will have the same or better results no matter when you charge.

 

[CyberJay]

cheap fuel has gotten to the point where I’m now paying more for electricity in Connecticut compared to gas. Never thought gas would be $2.69 a gallon. My utility rate is .44 p/kw which pushed my cost over gas. Just F’ng shocking. I don’t miss gas stations, but the “EV’s are cheaper” argument is out the window!

If you have the proper roof (which you should if you have a CT) PLEASE consider solar. I am all in on the Tesla Ecosystem incl powerwalls etc - and if you convince the utility to allow you enough capacity then it’s truly economically beneficial. Home value goes up too..

Converted my heating units to electric also - so I don’t pay for much propane for heating either…

long term viable economically

 

[CallsignVega]

China making more electric power from just their solar and hydro than the US makes from anything just makes the the US look like morons.

I've always found this fetishization of China a hilarious point of view.

Their hydro is decent (because they have the rivers at great environmental cost to make it so), but China's solar is just a tiny sliver of their production:

They've been tripping over themselves to produce more coal power and dirty the planet as much as possible...

 

[PungoteagueDave]

I've always found this fetishization of China a hilarious point of view.

Their hydro is decent (because they have the rivers at great environmental cost to make it so), but China's solar is just a tiny sliver of their production:

They've been tripping over themselves to produce more coal power and dirty the planet as much as possible...

Yeah, I’ve spent a few months motorcycling China - entered from Mongolia and exited through Hong Kong, visited every major city, and zigzagged to the west through the Gobi desert, down through the Tibetan highlands, to the Thai and Vietnam borders. We experienced many days where we ended up so covered in soot that we got directly into the shower still in our riding gear in order to clean our helmets-to-boots before stripping down. What you see there is new coal plants under construction and opening constantly. China is CURRENTLY starting up three new coal fired power plants every week. We are closing coal plants. They are building them. Think about that and remember it every time you hear this virtue signaling baloney.

I really enjoyed seeing China. It isn’t what most westerners think. But all this kudos to China for solar and hydro is almost complete BS. The reality is that there is no national grid. Every town, no matter how big or small, produces its own power. As we approached any town or city, it was enshrouded in a black cloud from a distance, and we rode into the dirt. In most every case we saw schools, a hospital, apartments, even churches, and directly in the middle or next door would be a belching coal fired power plant.

We did see massive solar infrastructure and new hydro dams, most notably along the Yangtze, but the solar is mostly in rural and mountainous regions in the Tibetan highlands, and isn’t connected to other regions because grid connectivity doesn’t exist.

China has increased its dependency on coal over just the past ten years more than the U.S. produces overall, and ours has declined significantly. Virtually everything we see in the mainstream media about Chinese power production is propaganda designed for political consumption here, to value-shame and accomplish greater state control of how power is produced here. We are clearly NOT the problem but the distorted facts are still used to increase government power and control. As a result we are seeing the huge increases in per-kWh cost referenced in OP.

 

[TyPope]

I've always found this fetishization of China a hilarious point of view.

Their hydro is decent (because they have the rivers at great environmental cost to make it so), but China's solar is just a tiny sliver of their production:

They've been tripping over themselves to produce more coal power and dirty the planet as much as possible...

Apparently, as more people reach middle class, more people can afford air conditioning...

China building power production


Interesting tidbit: Though China started almost twice as many coal plants in 2025 as 2024, solar energy increased its share of power generation by 1%. Not a lot but it's moving.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Apparently, as more people reach middle class, more people can afford air conditioning...

China building power production


Interesting tidbit: Though China started almost twice as many coal plants in 2025 as 2024, solar energy increased its share of power generation by 1%. Not a lot but it's moving.

The percent of total is a meaningless stat. The fact is that China is still building massive amounts of new coal plants, and that's what matters in the end because of how long they last, and the lack of grid - it is how the actual power that is being used everyday is made, with INCREASING dependency thereon. Those newly built plants aren't going anywhere for many decades. I saw it with my own eyes, by the hundreds in my trip, by the thousands overall. You are using the gross power production capacity numbers to support the idea that their renewables are increasingly even more significant - but that is a misleading number because most of the renewable power cannot be and is not used where it is needed most, due to the lack of grid connection.

You are correct that the middle class is the story - one of the most amazing stories in the history of humankind. In 1990 only 3% of the the country was middle class by western standards. By 2020 more than half was middle class (over 600 million people), and by 2030, less than four years from now, it will be well over 80%. Today the Chinese middle class (again, by western standards - kids through college, two cars) stands at more than double the entire U.S. population.

More than 90% of Chinese families own their own homes, and many own more than one. This change from peasantry to blue collar and manufacturing employment, with the concomitant change in wealth, is the most amazing and rapid change in human living conditions ever - not well understood in the west, but simply fact. We tend to psychologically suppress these facts because of the system and politics, much of which is also mis-perceived outside the country. It really takes getting on the ground to see how entrepreneurial the people have become, relying on themselves for success, and little on the state. There is a very limited and regionally inconsistent social security and unemployment benefit system by western standards. This isn't well understood in the west, where we have a perception that communism creates a nanny state - that's the European style of socialism - in China it pretty much every person for themselves compared to much of the world - family support is far more important than state support.

Chinese politics is a mess, but in reality does not affect how most people live their daily lives. They are travelling more, especially internationally. I've never met a Chinese person who has travelled as much inside China as my wife and I have, and they are often amazed when we show them our motorcycle travels. China has good internet connectivity and mobile service everywhere, no matter how remote, albeit you need a VPN to use google or facebook there, also true in Russia.

Many Chinese students are increasingly being educated in western institutions. Over the past ten years, more than half my students at the JHU Carey Business School have been Chinese - I've gotten to know many, and they are often very aware of the external views that westerners have of China, and have their own fairly blunt assessment of the risks and issues in their homeland. These views have a fairly wide perspective, similar to our political divisions in the U.S. - not the single-minded monolithic assumptions than many westerners apply to the supposed Chinese state-compliant-population - they can be independent thinkers and are often more creative than we in the west tend to believe.

Circling this back to power, there's a reason they've needed massive increases in new power - and it's mostly good. But it is the single largest factor that also degrades life quality in China. Air pollution pervades all parts of the country - every town and city. The current policies there are window dressing to worldwide demand for reduced dependency on fossil fuels. And that's all it is - the renewables are big and growing, but not much used, and the fact is that EVERY day they increase their total usage of fossil fuels if not the percentage - because there is no workable alternative. It was depressing to see in person, and overwhelming to me given our trip that went to every part of the country, so we saw just how entrenched and growing this dependence on coal has become, mostly in just the past 30 years. Most every day while riding we went through multiple towns or cities - and in every case it was the same pattern - we would ride out of the smoke cloud where everyone lives, across cleaner open air, toward the next town and its smoke cloud, repeat.

Some areas are too far north for solar to work (just as solar doesn't work in Norway or Alaska), and others are too far away from the hydro production - or they have no grid so the local leaders build a couple more coal plants - because that's what they have in abundance. I don't know what the answer will be, but clearly the west is not the problem with respect to fossil fuels, and even if we completely terminated all use of fossil fuels, the rest of the world would still use more than are burned today, with the trend line still heading up. It is a rock and hard place conundrum.

The cold hard facts are that virtually everything we do in the U.S. with respect to reducing fossil fuel dependency is nearly meaningless trivia in the big picture. All that is said as a person with two Teslas, 83 kwh of solar panel production, and a carbon-neutral oyster aquaculture farm - when our lib friends congratulate us on being socially conscious, I reply that all those lifestyle facts are 100% meaningless BS despite being a good story. Because what's going on in China far eclipses everything we do here and in Europe to reduce fossil fuel usage.

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