Promised range of 500 miles ?

[HaulingAss]

Those differences, if they end up happening, will be substantially different from being 200 miles short on what for all intents & purposes would be a very formidable tow vehicle if it in fact had 500 miles of range. without that extra range it just doesn’t cut the mustard for many use-case scenarios. Zero people should be defensive about that indisputable fact.

The only part I disagree with is your representation that use case scenarios that require longer ranges are common. I would characterize them as niche or edge use cases.

Statistics show that the vast majority of pickups never tow anything, and when they do, they generally don't tow cross-country. While it's true that some people do do that, and it encompasses hundreds of thousands of use cases, it's still a very small percentage of the total pickup market (that tow long distances). Most trucks don't tow at all (or only occasional local towing).

Because EV pickups only comprise less than 1% of all pickups sold, they don't need to meet niche use cases to sell well. EV pickups could rise to 25% to 50% of the new truck market without ever needing more than 300+ miles of EPA range without plugging in for 20 minutes. Long-distance towing is just not a mainstream activity.

I think the disconnect here is caused by a few people who desire a long-range EV pickup due to the expense of long-distance towing with gas or diesel. But the cost of electricity from DCFCers and the open road approaches that of gas and diesel anyway. Which just means EVs are no better at long distance towing (even those with 500 miles of EPA range).

Yes, you can want a long-range EV tow vehicle. That doesn't mean Tesla has to provide it. Yes, it's unfortunate that Tesla projected a 500-mile range so far in advance of when they will deliver one but, if you don't like it, there is nothing preventing you from buying something else. Just know that it will come with a serious handicap of excessive cost, excessive weight, poorer handling and sinking in soft surfaces. There is no free lunch.

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[dalton108]

The only part I disagree with is your representation that use case scenarios that require longer ranges are common. I would characterize them as niche or edge use cases.

Statistics show that the vast majority of pickups never tow anything, and when they do, they generally don't tow cross-country. While it's true that some people do do that, and it encompasses hundreds of thousands of use cases, it's still a very small percentage of the total pickup market (that tow long distances). Most trucks don't tow at all (or only occasional local towing).

Because EV pickups only comprise less than 1% of all pickups sold, they don't need to meet niche use cases to sell well. EV pickups could rise to 25% to 50% of the new truck market without ever needing more than 300+ miles of EPA range without plugging in for 20 minutes. Long-distance towing is just not a mainstream activity.

I think the disconnect here is caused by a few people who desire a long-range EV pickup due to the expense of long-distance towing with gas or diesel. But the cost of electricity from DCFCers and the open road approaches that of gas and diesel anyway. Which just means EVs are no better at long distance towing (even those with 500 miles of EPA range).

Yes, you can want a long-range EV tow vehicle. That doesn't mean Tesla has to provide it. Yes, it's unfortunate that Tesla projected a 500-mile range so far in advance of when they will deliver one but, if you don't like it, there is nothing preventing you from buying something else. Just know that it will come with a serious handicap of excessive cost, excessive weight, poorer handling and sinking in soft surfaces. There is no free lunch.

In my case, as I’ve stated in the past, it just means I’m holding onto my FJ and my poor daughter is gonna have to wait until I die to get it from me. ?

For me, I have range penalties on two different frequent use cases:

1. I don’t buy fast cars to drive them slowly. That applies to my CyberBeast also. so my range is nowhere near the 304 miles that I’m supposed to get with my set up. If I get 250 it’s a miracle and I’m OK with that except for when I’m on a longer road trip. Although it’s barely an inconvenience in that scenario because I’m going to pass superchargers and I’ll take the longer pause to charge up so that I can enjoy quick acceleration and effortless passing.

2. The towing my trailer out to the middle of nowhere as we’ve previously discussed is very difficult to work around. It limits where I can go. Again right now if I wanted to drive up to Ely Nevada with my trailer I could not do it and I do want to go there some improvements will come with more charging infrastructure, but there’s just not gonna be a substitute for more range and IMO 450 to 500 is the minimum sweet spot. If we had chargers everywhere and 15 minute curves, that would do it too but I’d still prefer the larger capacity.

And yes you can’t always get what you want.

 

[Jack27]

I pre-ordered my cyberbeast based on the specs that were offered during the unveil. I bought it despite its shortcomings, I’m not going to pretend that they don’t exist. At no point did I suggest or claim surprise.

What I did do is to accept things as they are. X was promised; and X was not delivered. Those are facts. Plain and simple.

I’m not going to pretend that words don’t mean what they mean for any reason and be-clown myself to >>carry someone else’s water for them.<<

I don’t think you should either.

Do as you like, but I’m gonna say exactly what I think whenever I choose to.

BTW: Our 1st Gen Model Y (which was pre-ordered before production right after its unveiling) delivered on every promise made. This was also true of my 2nd Gen M3P, and my S Plaid.

The 500 mile range miss was substantial, pretending like it wasn’t does no one any good.

Welll I don’t know I told my wife I would have a 6 pack before summer and now it’s December and it didn’t happen. I did get a pony keg though so I tried? We all can wish full think and come up a little short.
here’s the thing. He came out he said things to push his product with wishful and hopeful thinking. Turned out he came up a little short but never did he say “sorry people I’m keeping your deposit and you will find out I came up short once you get the truck. It was transparent before order day and listed what the truck did have and everyone had the choice to cancel there order get there deposit back and move to another vehicle purchase. That is the part where I disagree with all the complaint. No one was forced to buy it. People come up short. You shoot for the stars and still made shit no one could by doing that. I don’t think that makes me a fan boy (although I think he’s brillian). It’s just if we held POTUS of past and many other company’s to the same standers of what they promised vs what they delivered we would be calling everyone out.

 

[Lasttoy]

4680 will never do it. My CT has no more range than my 2018 long range S. Just ain't there. And my truck charges twice as long as my S.
The other drawback is the range.
It only charges to 318. If we get 275 it's a miracle. I've got 13000 miles. 3 trips. Daily 100 mile trips.

 

[Jack27]

4680 will never do it. My CT has no more range than my 2018 long range S. Just ain't there. And my truck charges twice as long as my S.
The other drawback is the range.
It only charges to 318. If we get 275 it's a miracle. I've got 13000 miles. 3 trips. Daily 100 mile trips.

I mean my duramax 2015 claimed 15/17 miles a gallon and I never got more then 12 so same same

 

[dalton108]

Welll I don’t know I told my wife I would have a 6 pack before summer and now it’s December and it didn’t happen. I did get a pony keg though so I tried? We all can wish full think and come up a little short.
here’s the thing. He came out he said things to push his product with wishful and hopeful thinking. Turned out he came up a little short but never did he say “sorry people I’m keeping your deposit and you will find out I came up short once you get the truck. It was transparent before order day and listed what the truck did have and everyone had the choice to cancel there order get there deposit back and move to another vehicle purchase. That is the part where I disagree with all the complaint. No one was forced to buy it. People come up short. You shoot for the stars and still made shit no one could by doing that. I don’t think that makes me a fan boy (although I think he’s brillian). It’s just if we held POTUS of past and many other company’s to the same standers of what they promised vs what they delivered we would be calling everyone out.

I do call everyone out. Myself included, no one is immune from the Delta between what they promised and what they deliver. I expect to live up to my promises, don’t you? am I the only person on this planet that was raised to not make promises that they can’t keep? If I’m an outlier then fine I’m happy to be one because the alternative is just stupid.

My question to you is what’s the problem with acknowledging things as they are?

 

[dalton108]

I mean my duramax 2015 claimed 15/17 miles a gallon and I never got more then 12 so same same

So, you spend a bit more money at the pump and an insignificant amount of additional time pumping?

That’s materially different, my friend, from being unable to do something that you want to do in your vehicle because it’s non-possible, like driving from Las Vegas to Ely Nevada and back. You’re comparing fresh apples ? and cooked lobsters. ?

The similarities end with them both being red.

You see how those things are different, right? Also was it Larry Duramax that personally got on stage and promised you that his truck was going to do that? Cause that’s different too.

I know you guys don’t want it to be. But for fuck sakes if my law firm makes a promise it’s a promise for me not from anyone of my 100 employees especially if I am the one standing in front of a client telling them what we will deliver. Why you guys insist on constantly trying to insulate Elon from criticism that he well deserves … I will never know.

I’ll be with you anytime it’s bullshit when it’s factual, we’re not going to be able to agree.

‘Cause I don’t do this … whatever this is you guys are doing.

 

[Jack27]

I do call everyone out. Myself included, no one is immune from the Delta between what they promised and what they deliver. I expect to live up to my promises, don’t you? am I the only person on this planet that was raised to not make promises that they can’t keep? If I’m an outlier then fine I’m happy to be one because the alternative is just stupid.

My question to you is what’s the problem with acknowledging things as they are?

I use to live that way in my 30s early 40s, I keep only a few friends because no one has the loyalty or keep there word. But now at 50 I realize no one these days keeps there word and all have an excuse for why and I would just walk around pissed off all the time. I’m the guy that tells the guy who cut in front of 4 people in line to go fck him self and get in the back. You know what happens? Those 4 people don’t say thank you they look at me like I have a problem and I’m a jerk ? go figure
So now I try to use sarcasm and jokes to keep my self from being mad about things

 

[Jack27]

So, you spend a bit more money at the pump and an insignificant amount of additional time pumping?

That’s materially different, my friend, from being unable to do something that you want to do in your vehicle because it’s non-possible, like driving from Las Vegas to Ely Nevada and back. You’re comparing fresh apples ? and cooked lobsters. ?

The similarities end with them both being red.

You see how those things are different, right? Also was it Larry Duramax that personally got on stage and promised you that his truck was going to do that? Cause that’s different too.

I know you guys don’t want it to be. But for fuck sakes if my law firm makes a promise it’s a promise for me not from anyone of my 100 employees especially if I am the one standing in front of a client telling them what we will deliver. Why you guys insist on constantly trying to insulate Elon from criticism that he well deserves … I will never know.

I’ll be with you anytime it’s bullshit when it’s factual, we’re not going to be able to agree.

‘Cause I don’t do this … whatever this is you guys are doing.

You’re a layer ? Sht we ain’t winning this argument ? don’t hit me with a lawsuit please ?

 

[dalton108]

I use to live that way in my 30s early 40s, I keep only a few friends because no one has the loyalty or keep there word. But now at 50 I realize no one these days keeps there word and all have an excuse for why and I would just walk around pissed off all the time. I’m the guy that tells the guy who cut in front of 4 people in line to go fck him self and get in the back. You know what happens? Those 4 people don’t say thank you they look at me like I have a problem and I’m a jerk ? go figure
So now I try to use sarcasm and jokes to keep my self from being mad about things

I’m 55. My values are not malleable.

Being pissed off and being unyielding are not the same thing.

I do not accept our post-fact, zero-sum anything goes society. I won’t. Ever.

 

[REM]

Yes, you can count on me having no response to manufactured BS. 500 promised; 500 not delivered is a statement of fact.

If you think stating fact is “whining;”I’m not somebody that can, or is willing help you with that particular affliction.

But if you think that’s a real gotcha, by all means celebrate your big “win.” ?

I think it's a bit annoying for people to have to point out to you that numbers on a jumbotron during a prototype unveil aren't a "promise" by any stretch of the imagination or from any reasonable person.

Elon didn't get up on a stage and say: "This 21st day, in the year of our Lord, 2019, I do so solemnly swear that this truck will be released with 500 miles of exact range as depicted on the screen above me"

No. Any reasonable person would have known that was a prototype truck, in a pre-production environment with reasonable guesses at final price, design, and features. You are being obtuse here.

 

[dalton108]

I think it's a bit annoying for people to have to point out to you that numbers on a jumbotron during a prototype unveil aren't a "promise" by any stretch of the imagination or from any reasonable person.

Elon didn't get up on a stage and say: "This 21st day, in the year of our Lord, 2019, I do so solemnly swear that this truck will be released with 500 miles of exact range as depicted on the screen above me"

No. Any reasonable person would have known that was a prototype truck, in a pre-production environment with reasonable guesses at final price, design, and features. You are being obtuse here.

You can argue with Daniel Webster about that.

Elon could’ve easily have said we intend to deliver 500 miles range. And then people wouldn’t be able to apply the exact term that means the thing that he did to what he did and you guys wouldn’t have to be so sensitive about a semantic argument you can’t win.

But here we are. ??‍

 

[REM]

You can argue with Daniel Webster about that.

Elon could’ve easily have said we intend to deliver 500 miles range. And then people wouldn’t be able to apply the exact term that means the thing that he did to what he did and you guys wouldn’t have to be so sensitive about a semantic argument you can’t win.

But here we are. ??‍

The key operator in my comment above is "reasonable person". If you are so sure that estimated numbers on a board during a prototype unveiling has any sort of legal binding agreement then perhaps you should take them to court and let us know how it goes.

 

[dalton108]

The key operator in my comment above is "reasonable person". If you are so sure that estimated numbers on a board during a prototype unveiling has any sort of legal binding agreement then perhaps you should take them to court and let us know how it goes.

What you’re trying to describe would be a guarantee or a warranty at law or an oath in different settings. Again, you boys can argue semantics until you’re blue in the face it won’t change what words mean.

people can express their feelings about whether a company delivered on a promise of any sort that they like without needing to meet a reasonable person standard. I don’t think anybody was in a position to sue Google because they didn’t deliver on that hole don’t be evil thing. We’re not talking about suing here.

You guys want to police the forum and language when someone says that Elon didn’t deliver on his promised 500 miles that person is making a factual statement and I’m still waiting for a single one of you to explain the exact problem and acknowledging that reality.

I’m never going to not except facts but I’d like for one of you to explain yourselves if you can. Because you all sound crazy to me right now.

 

[Jack27]

I’m 55. My values are not malleable.

Being pissed off and being unyielding are not the same thing.

I do not accept our post-fact, zero-sum anything goes society. I won’t. Ever.

Haha I’m not pissed off but you kind of sound pissed off? ?. Honestly my stance on this kind of ish is it’s a fkn car/truck you like it you buy it you don’t like it don’t buy it. You have a bad experience you sell it you have a good one you keep it and maybe use the same company for your next one. Why people that don’t own one feel the need to complain about “what he promised online and spend there time in forums like this is wild to me he’s living rent free in some these people’s heads , Like I don’t even know who the CEO of Chevy is and I owned 8 of them. Am I fan boy? Hmm I guess because I think he’s brilliant and what makes me more of a fan is he’s rich AF and doesn’t Give a F name from what you say your trates are I would think you would appreciate that type of person . He speaks his mind and isn’t playing the game others play. He goes on Rogan smokes pot he buys Twitter for free speech even though he lost a ton of cash on it. That’s what makes me a fan plus I own 2
Teslas and have owned 3
And had really good experience with all of them. I’m an anti hater. If he was a normal CEO kissing baby’s and ass I probably wouldn’t like him. People act like he isn’t human and everything he says needs to be held to facts and perfect or he’s criticized like not delivering 500 mile range. I can tell you if someone followed you around all day and saw evehrknr you do people will find sht to call you out on no matter what.
“Police the forum ? that’s for the mods and Crissa.

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