How long will you wait for your Cybertruck?

[ricinro]

I want mine after the TSLA share are over 400$ lol

True, My purchase of a CT was always dependent on TSLA success. I still have a few years until Tesla contacts me.

Sponsored

 

[NJturtlePower]

that’s not how the incentive works

I was under the impression that you had to take physical delivery by the April grandfather clause deadline to be eligible for the Federal Tax Credit. That it has nothing to do with preordering but actual physical delivery.

Wrong to both....it's exactly how it works under the transition rule.

IRS used to have a clause about a certain percentage (5% I believe) to qualify as a "firm order" but that language has been removed in the latest EV updates.

See instructions from IRS form #8936

IRS Credits for New Electric Vehicles Purchased in 2022 or Before
https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-electric-vehicles-purchased-in-2022-or-before


Rivian even put out a whole guidance stating exactly the same months ago.

https://rivian.com/support/article/...V-tax-credit-using-a-binding-order-agreement?

As soon as we have a VIN I will amend my 2022 filing and claim the full $7500 EV tax credit. Will be my 2nd.... 1st was claimed on my 2018 Tesla Model 3 LR RWD.

 

[cvalue13]

Wrong to both....it's exactly how it works under the transition rule.

I’d suggest you check with a tax professional.

Rivian even put out a whole guidance stating exactly the same months ago.

https://rivian.com/support/article/...V-tax-credit-using-a-binding-order-agreement?

I’d suggest you don’t listen to Rivian, or at least only listen to this piece (my emphasis):

“we hoped this document would allow them to apply under the prior IRC 30D federal tax credit requirements….As a reminder, ultimate eligibility for tax credits is determined by the IRS. We recommend you consult with a tax professional for questions about your specific situation.”

And from the IRS guidance you posted above, but a portion you didn’t highlight (my emphasis):

“What is a written binding contract?​

In general, a written binding contract :​

​

• is enforceable under state law, based on the state and relevant facts and circumstances, and
• does not limit the damages a buyer or seller can receive for a breached contract, such as forfeiting a deposit or paying a pre-determined dollar amount or a percentage of the total contract price for the vehicle.

An indication of a binding contract is if a buyer has made a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment.”​

Let’s step through these, at 40K feet.

First, note that whether the Rivian “contract” is binding is determined by state law. Accordingly, the Rivian contract may end up as being variously binding or non-binding depending on what state one lives in.

Second, while I don’t practice law in all 50 states, there are certain themes common to most all states, which generally leads me to believe this contract is not “binding” in the ways the IRS will require: that in executing it the buyer has the legitimate intent to be “bound” to pay a price for a vehicle delivered by Rivian, or that Rivian intends to be “bound” to deliver a vehicle if the buyer proffers a given payment.

But to list only a few of the dozens of related issues in the Rivian “contract”:

• “Contingent on product availability, the Vehicle pricing is shown in the configuration accessible through your Rivian account.”
• “Vehicle prices available at the time of your Order are only an estimate based on available features and options at the time of order.”
• “All prices posted on the Rivian website are subject to change without notice.”
• “While this Agreement creates a binding Order for you to purchase the Vehicle when built by Rivian, this Agreement does not create an obligation by Rivian to build the Vehicle.

And maybe more importantly, let me just ask: by signing this contract, did you legitimately intend that if Rivian shows up in your driveway with a any truck whatsoever (the contract doesn’t guarantee a specific vehicle), at any price whatsoever (the contract doesn’t guarantee a specific price), that you have nonetheless promised to hand them that unknown price for the unknown vehicle?

If the answer is “no,” then under any state law this is not a binding contract.

If the answer is “yes,” then read on:

Back to the IRS:

​

“a written binding contract: does not limit the damages a buyer or seller can receive for a breached contract such as forfeiting a deposit or paying a pre-determined dollar amount or a percentage of the total contract price for the vehicle.”​

Back to the Rivian contract:

​

“10. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.Maximum Liability. … IN NO EVENT SHALL RIVIAN’S … AGGREGATE LIABILITY ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT, … EXCEED THE TOTAL OF THE AMOUNTS YOU PAID TO RIVIAN PURSUANT TO THIS AGREEMENT.”​

Hopefully the above juxtaposition speaks for itself.

back to the IRS guidance:

“An indication of a binding contract is if a buyer has made a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment.”​

This language above is in fact what you are referring to when you say:

IRS used to have a clause about a certain percentage (5% I believe) to qualify as a "firm order" but that language has been removed in the latest EV updates.

But the “guidance“ does not lay out what the IRS defines as a “significant” or payment. That happens elsewhere in the code or rulings of the IRS. As there have been no rulings yet to the contrary regarding this specific Rivian contract, one must look to the precedent in IRS rulings.

And historically, the IRS determinations require at least 5%, but that’s not always sufficient. The larger the better.

And no matter the size of the deposit, it’s not still not binding if the contract limits damages (Rivian’s does) or otherwise doesn’t meet state law requirements for being ‘binding’ (in many if not most states, it isn’t).

Despite the fact that Rivian peppered the word “binding” throughout the contract, those references mean nothing. Frankly, as an initial principle, I believe the way Rivian handled this “contract” amounts to fraud if not various consumer protection claims in most states. Such consumer protection claims would be based on the claim that Rivian led consumers to believe the contract would be sufficient for achieving the goal of ensuring the tax breaks, but mislead consumers regarding the sufficiency of this contract to do so.

Now, if I were representing Rivian, I’d say “please see Section 4 of the contract”:

​

“4. Disclaimer of Tax Eligibility. Rivian cannot guarantee that you will be eligible for any tax credits because you signed this Agreement. You are responsible for your own personal tax situation and determination of eligibility for credits and incentives for Federal, State, and Local taxes. Rivian does not guarantee the actions or determinations of the Internal Revenue Service or any other tax authority….”​

But my response, under consumer protection laws of misleading “advertising” (which is what Rivian has done with this “contract”), would be in effect:

“Rivian, a corporation, knew full well most or all customers signing this contract would not have legal counsel to review it, and regarding whether the contract was misleading to customers: let me show you 400 online truck forum threads with people citing Rivian’s website as proof that the contract ensures availability of the tax credit, such as this one:

Rivian even put out a whole guidance stating exactly the same months ago.

https://rivian.com/support/article/...V-tax-credit-using-a-binding-order-agreement?

 

[Crissa]

I know they're trying to capture the market, but clearly demand has fallen.

Is that why everyone has long lines out the doors and record shipping numbers for EVs, even those not getting the tax credits?

C'mon, demand is solid - as long as you're selling long range BEVs.

-Crissa

 

[WoodChuckDad]

My wife and I built our own house. I'm broke as F#(k. I'm balancing, paying down my debt, hoping my 2004 Dodge Ram doesn't just die, and hoping my reservation doesn't come up till I fix my money issue a bit.

And when I saying we built our own house I mean, we built our own house.

 

[Crissa]

My wife and I built our own house. I'm broke as F#(k. I'm balancing, paying down my debt, hoping my 2004 Dodge Ram doesn't just die, and hoping my reservation doesn't come up till I fix my money issue a bit.

And when I saying we built our own house I mean, we built our own house.

Wow. That thing is bigger'n my neighborhood! What work.

Don't forget the landscaping. ^-^

-Crissa

 

[Hunter71294]

Is that why everyone has long lines out the doors and record shipping numbers for EVs, even those not getting the tax credits?

C'mon, demand is solid - as long as you're selling long range BEVs.

-Crissa

Why else would they lower the price by 20% on their vehicles? They want to keep production on the up. I meant more on the macro side. As in all car/truck sales are going to suffer. Interest rates have more than doubled in 1 year. Economy has to slow down.
Tesla knew the market is shifting so they lowered prices ahead of time to keep demand strong. I think it’s a smart move to capture more market vs short-term higher margins. On the bright side, it looks like the CT may only get a modest price hike from the original price.

 

[Hunter71294]

Why else would they lower the price by 20% on their vehicles? They want to keep production on the up. I meant more on the macro side. As in all car/truck sales are going to suffer. Interest rates have more than doubled in 1 year. Economy has to slow down.
Tesla knew the market is shifting so they lowered prices ahead of time to keep demand strong. I think it’s a smart move to capture more market vs short-term higher margins. On the bright side, it looks like the CT may only get a modest price hike from the original price.

I also forgot to add we just bought a Model 3 standard range on the 12th. Love it but we just called and reserved it. It was in stock, brand new. A week before the full credit was gone. Last year there was a long wait for Teslas. Or any car.

 

[Crissa]

Interest rates have more than doubled in 1 year. Economy has to slow down.

That's the idea. Can't sell more cars than we can make, ya know.

-Crissa

 

[pricedm]

Wasn’t the semi supposed to be quad motor and they made it tri motor to get better mileage? Also the model S Plaid is tri motor. There are currently no quad motor Teslas and that makes it appear that CyberTruck will not have a quad motor option. Any opinions about this?

I tend to agree...WAG and SWAG-o-meter say look to Semi and Model S Plaid for clues. I'm betting on dual and tri-motor versions. Semi is not on 4680 format--yet--but hope the energy density issues get resolved to bring that vision to reality with Semi 1.2 and Cybertruck

 

[Crissa]

I tend to agree...WAG and SWAG-o-meter say look to Semi and Model S Plaid for clues. I'm betting on dual and tri-motor versions. Semi is not on 4680 format--yet--but hope the energy density issues get resolved to bring that vision to reality with Semi 1.2 and Cybertruck

That's why there originally was a tri-motor variant of the Cybertruck. It was only later that Elon said they'd start with a quad-motor version.

-Crissa

 

[NJturtlePower]

I’d suggest you check with a tax professional.



I’d suggest you don’t listen to Rivian, or at least only listen to this piece (my emphasis):

“we hoped this document would allow them to apply under the prior IRC 30D federal tax credit requirements….As a reminder, ultimate eligibility for tax credits is determined by the IRS. We recommend you consult with a tax professional for questions about your specific situation.”

And from the IRS guidance you posted above, but a portion you didn’t highlight (my emphasis):

“What is a written binding contract?​

In general, a written binding contract :​

​

• is enforceable under state law, based on the state and relevant facts and circumstances, and
• does not limit the damages a buyer or seller can receive for a breached contract, such as forfeiting a deposit or paying a pre-determined dollar amount or a percentage of the total contract price for the vehicle.

An indication of a binding contract is if a buyer has made a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment.”​

Let’s step through these, at 40K feet.

First, note that whether the Rivian “contract” is binding is determined by state law. Accordingly, the Rivian contract may end up as being variously binding or non-binding depending on what state one lives in.

Second, while I don’t practice law in all 50 states, there are certain themes common to most all states, which generally leads me to believe this contract is not “binding” in the ways the IRS will require: that in executing it the buyer has the legitimate intent to be “bound” to pay a price for a vehicle delivered by Rivian, or that Rivian intends to be “bound” to deliver a vehicle if the buyer proffers a given payment.

But to list only a few of the dozens of related issues in the Rivian “contract”:

• “Contingent on product availability, the Vehicle pricing is shown in the configuration accessible through your Rivian account.”
• “Vehicle prices available at the time of your Order are only an estimate based on available features and options at the time of order.”
• “All prices posted on the Rivian website are subject to change without notice.”
• “While this Agreement creates a binding Order for you to purchase the Vehicle when built by Rivian, this Agreement does not create an obligation by Rivian to build the Vehicle.

And maybe more importantly, let me just ask: by signing this contract, did you legitimately intend that if Rivian shows up in your driveway with a any truck whatsoever (the contract doesn’t guarantee a specific vehicle), at any price whatsoever (the contract doesn’t guarantee a specific price), that you have nonetheless promised to hand them that unknown price for the unknown vehicle?

If the answer is “no,” then under any state law this is not a binding contract.

If the answer is “yes,” then read on:

Back to the IRS:

​

“a written binding contract: does not limit the damages a buyer or seller can receive for a breached contract such as forfeiting a deposit or paying a pre-determined dollar amount or a percentage of the total contract price for the vehicle.”​

Back to the Rivian contract:

​

“10. LIMITATION OF LIABILITY.Maximum Liability. … IN NO EVENT SHALL RIVIAN’S … AGGREGATE LIABILITY ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT, … EXCEED THE TOTAL OF THE AMOUNTS YOU PAID TO RIVIAN PURSUANT TO THIS AGREEMENT.”​

Hopefully the above juxtaposition speaks for itself.

back to the IRS guidance:

“An indication of a binding contract is if a buyer has made a significant non-refundable deposit or down payment.”​

This language above is in fact what you are referring to when you say:



But the “guidance“ does not lay out what the IRS defines as a “significant” or payment. That happens elsewhere in the code or rulings of the IRS. As there have been no rulings yet to the contrary regarding this specific Rivian contract, one must look to the precedent in IRS rulings.

And historically, the IRS determinations require at least 5%, but that’s not always sufficient. The larger the better.

And no matter the size of the deposit, it’s not still not binding if the contract limits damages (Rivian’s does) or otherwise doesn’t meet state law requirements for being ‘binding’ (in many if not most states, it isn’t).

Despite the fact that Rivian peppered the word “binding” throughout the contract, those references mean nothing. Frankly, as an initial principle, I believe the way Rivian handled this “contract” amounts to fraud if not various consumer protection claims in most states. Such consumer protection claims would be based on the claim that Rivian led consumers to believe the contract would be sufficient for achieving the goal of ensuring the tax breaks, but mislead consumers regarding the sufficiency of this contract to do so.

Now, if I were representing Rivian, I’d say “please see Section 4 of the contract”:

​

“4. Disclaimer of Tax Eligibility. Rivian cannot guarantee that you will be eligible for any tax credits because you signed this Agreement. You are responsible for your own personal tax situation and determination of eligibility for credits and incentives for Federal, State, and Local taxes. Rivian does not guarantee the actions or determinations of the Internal Revenue Service or any other tax authority….”​

But my response, under consumer protection laws of misleading “advertising” (which is what Rivian has done with this “contract”), would be in effect:

“Rivian, a corporation, knew full well most or all customers signing this contract would not have legal counsel to review it, and regarding whether the contract was misleading to customers: let me show you 400 online truck forum threads with people citing Rivian’s website as proof that the contract ensures availability of the tax credit, such as this one:

Whatever you want to believe, but those who have been following this closely for months as I have have had CPA's agree with the current exception with the Transition Rule in the Fisker groups. As soon as we have early Ocean One deliveries there will be people claiming and confirming.

Fisker sent out this email on Aug. 7th, 2022

And in fact the Fisker Ocean already comes up as qualified in the drop down manufacture tabs for the IRS form as well as online under 2022 filings even though none have been delivered yet.

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deducti...d-clean-vehicles-purchased-in-2022-and-before

But I'll be sure to report back when you're 100% wrong!

 

[cvalue13]

But I'll be sure to report back when you're 100% wrong!

Report back what? That people filed their taxes claiming incorrect deductions?

And in fact the Fisker Ocean already comes up as qualified in the drop down manufacture tabs for the IRS form

Some people may have a sufficiently binding contract for a Fisker.

Do you?

but those who have been following this closely for months

So other people have been following this closely for months, too? /s

I have have had CPA's agree with the current exception with the Transition Rule

Agree with what? That an exception exists? That’s uncontroversial.

But if you’re saying you’ve had CPAs review and decide the legal status of the Rivian contract as being sufficiently binding and meeting the other legal interpretation issues underlying the exception ….

…. well now you’ve had lawyer review it too, and he’s reminding you that CPAs aren’t lawyers.

Buuuuuuuuuut…. You do you.

Maybe the IRS won’t audit you and impose penalties - in which case it’s a windfall, congratulations.

I don’t care if someone’s willing to take that risk in their filings.

Was just trying to help someone who apparently can’t understand the risk exists in the first place.

Didn’t even charge my hourly rate

 

[Diehard]

Although generally stuff coming off is my favorite part of the deal, this really bugs me:

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