LFP Cybertruck

[Throwcomputer]

Or they should give a rebate for exchanging old degraded battery packs in for upgraded new battery packs... Since they are saving money on the recycled raw materials from those degraded packs.

I'm sure the raw material value of those spent old battery packs is not a small sum especially when you start to consider the number of Tesla's needing upgraded battery packs in the future.

Say 250k miles on your battery if it's degraded x percent you get $2k off the parts and labor of having them install a new battery.

Then they are still making money off their own new battery packs while saving money having long term customers bring their old packs in for exchange instead of ending up in a junkyard or recycling plant which will charge Tesla a lot more for those same broken down raw materials.

After 20% degradation batteries still have 5-10 years as grid tied batteries. Someone should specialize in building hardware to plug your old removed pack into the grid. Start with the model 3 packs since they are the most common. You would eventually need to build multiple interfaces to cover the the most common batteries types. Since space and weight are no longer a huge factor this would be perfect for the 3rd party builders. This would be way cheaper than any Powerwall.

There will be some equilibrium in which the value of the metals for new batteries exceeds the value of the storage less the increasing losses as the batteries age.

Tesla could really capitalize on the energy market side of this, optimizing the cycling vs sales price and charging price with AI grid management.

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[Crissa]

I certainly hope that Tesla eventually reverses their stance and allows third-party repair.

-Crissa

 

[Bitmaster]

Say 250k miles on your battery if it's degraded x percent you get $2k off the parts and labor of having them install a new battery.

How are they going to replace the batter if they are structural?

 

[firsttruck]

How are they going to replace the batter if they are structural?

Same way you replace a structural beam or column in a building. Temporarily provide alternate support using bracing beams & columns.
They can uproot complete house from structual foundation and trailer it across town or the state.

You secure the front and rear aluminum mega castings in fixed position (using some type of large clamping fixture) before you unbolt and remove the structural battery. Auto/truck body repair shops that do frame straightening and alignment probably have similar devices.

 

[Throwcomputer]

Same way you replace a structural beam or column in a building. Temporarily provide alternate support using bracing beams & columns.
They can uproot complete house from structual foundation and trailer it across town or the state.

You secure the front and rear aluminum mega castings in fixed position (using some type of large clamping fixture) before you unbolt and remove the structural battery. Auto/truck body repair shops that do frame straightening and alignment probably have similar devices.

Exactly.

They have to do this anyways for those odd cases where a structural pack dies under warranty now. So you bring it in for warranty repair, they do what they do to remove the structural pack, remove the seats an any additional interior components/electronics attached to the structural pack, bring in the new structural pack, re-attach your seats and additional components, lift it back into place and re-attach to body/castings.

This isn't revolutionary. Alls I'm sayin' is they should give a rebate for your return of the battery pack because they are going to save money recycling the raw materials in the production of new battery packs from those recycled materials.

Same thing happens now.. you get x dollars back when you bring your old acid battery back in when you buy a new battery, or return your old catalytic converter when replacing with new. Except that in the EV battery's case, the recycled materials have so much more value than the standard lead acid batteries of ICE vehicles.

 

[Ogre]

How are they going to replace the batter if they are structural?

The car/ truck body will be stable without the pack, it just won’t have any strength and will flex like mad with even small side loads.

if you take a box and cut off the top, it is still a box, but if you push on the corners there is a ton of flex. Add the 6th side and it is difficult to push the corners in. It is very similar.

 

[firsttruck]

Looks like some heavy duty vehicles will soon be using LFP.

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Motiv Power Systems using LFP batteries from ONE in commercial vehicles
In the USA, Motiv Power Systems is partnering with Our Next Energy (ONE) for LFP battery technology for Motiv’s 6th generation all-electric vehicles. The vans, trucks and buses based on the new platform are currently being tested and will launch in early 2023.
Mar 9, 2022
https://www.electrive.com/2022/03/09/motive-using-lfp-batteries-from-one-in-commercial-vehicles/


Our Next Energy, Inc. was founded in July 2020 by pioneers of the energy ... Aries™ uses safe and sustainable cathode chemistry (LFP).
https://one.ai/

Our Next Energy Inc. (ONE), a Michigan-based energy storage solutions company, has closed a $25 million Series A capital raise led by Breakthrough Energy Ventures. The round was also joined by Assembly Ventures, BMW i Ventures, Flex and Volta Energy Technologies. ONE’s technologies can double the range of electric vehicles.
The first of these technologies, called Aries, will go into production at the end of 2022 with an energy density of 287 Wh/L, at a system level.
Oct 22, 2021
By: Mark Kane
https://insideevs.com/news/542042/one-battery-bmw-investment-round/

 

[Tinker71]

That is definitely not a structural pack. It looks like something I would build. (not high tech) The BYD blades (LFP)span the vehicle to at least eliminate the internal ribs. I think they are glued together provide a little torsion resistance through the pack as well.

 

[Crissa]

That is definitely not a structural pack. It looks like something I would build. (not high tech) The BYD blades (LFP)span the vehicle to at least eliminate the internal ribs. I think they are glued together provide a little torsion resistance through the pack as well.

Yeah.

Although in big equipment the need to put everything into a tiny form factor is less, and they often need extra weights anyhow for leverage.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

That is definitely not a structural pack. It looks like something I would build. (not high tech) The BYD blades (LFP)span the vehicle to at least eliminate the internal ribs. I think they are glued together provide a little torsion resistance through the pack as well.

All those internal ribs are counter to the whole idea of a structural pack me thinks.

 

[Tinker71]

Yeah.

Although in big equipment the need to put everything into a tiny form factor is less, and they often need extra weights anyhow for leverage.

-Crissa

This got me thinking about use of megacasting in semi. I supposed due to lower volumes the payback might not be great, but I would think there would be a way to bisect the front and rear castings so that a massive casting machine is not required. Basically 4 cast parts.

As you say the need to get away from a more standard frame is not as great but Tesla is about incremental improvement. A thousand pound weight savings over 600,000 miles might mean something.

 

[Crissa]

This got me thinking about use of megacasting in semi. I supposed due to lower volumes the payback might not be great, but I would think there would be a way to bisect the front and rear castings so that a massive casting machine is not required. Basically 4 cast parts.

Right. But then you need four casting machines and then the machines to put the four pieces together so...

...Why not just the one casting machine?

Another advantage of the gigacasting is that with every time they replace the die, they can iterate the part they're making. The vast majority of the machine and its hard, heavy steel, doesn't need to be replaced.

This is a move to make cars cheaper in perpetuity, basically.

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

All those internal ribs are counter to the whole idea of a structural pack me thinks.

Having ribs in the case does not mean the assembly is NOT structural.

As a posted before. Structural can be done with cell shapes other than cylindrical.

Some examples are BYD, Magna, Leap Motors.

Below is previous post about structural can be done with cell shapes other than cylindrical:

-------------------------------------------------

Structural battery using rectangular vertical cells instead of cylinders.

Might work with standard prismatic shaped LFP cells sold by CATL and other LFP battery cell makers.

-------------------------------------------------

Magna is charging toward CES 2022 in Las Vegas where it will highlight its commitment to creating a better world of mobility. The company is demonstrating how its complete vehicle expertise and systems approach touches all aspects of the vehicle from electrification to advanced driver assist systems, connectivity and new mobility.

Magna International Inc - Media Kit for CES 2022 Show - Structural Solutions

Structural Battery Enclosure

Structural battery enclosures offer OEMs a bolt-on Body in White solution for fully- electric vehicles and hybrids. This type of battery enclosure protects the entire vehicle – not just the battery – in a crash.
https://www.magna.com/docs/default-...it_eco-innovation_magna.pdf?sfvrsn=c0f7b93a_2

.....
Competitive advantage/differentiators

• Structural solutions provide protection to the battery while contributing to the structural aspect of the Body in White.

• Depending on application requirements, materials may include steel, aluminum, and composites.

• High-pressure aluminum die casting solutions reduce machining of holes and sealing surfaces.

• Global engineering production footprint. • R&D and advanced engineering for new technical challenges.

--------

Magna's Virtual Presence at CES 2022 - Tour the Booth
https://www.magna.com/CES2022

OEMs wanting more info about Magna's products should contact:
Gabriel Cordoba [email protected]

----------------------------------

Research on structural battery using rectangular vertical cells instead of cylinders.
Design, manufacture and test of a novel structural battery based on sandwich construction
June 2015 Journal of Sandwich Structures and Materials
DOI:10.1177/1099636215591908
Authors:
Abhendra Singh Air Force Institute of Technology
Lei Cao
Jun Ma
Jiho Seo Pennsylvania State University
Charles E. Bakis
Yancheng Zhang
Michael A. Hickner Pennsylvania State University
Chris Rahn Pennsylvania State University
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ctural_battery_based_on_sandwich_construction

 

[firsttruck]

------------------------------------

Our Next Energy Debuts Aries Structural Cell to Pack Technology at The Battery Show October 17, 2021
https://one.ai/aries-debut/

------------------------------------

Motiv Delivers - A MILESTONE ACHIEVED BY A MOTIV MEDIUM-DUTY EV TRUCK HAULING A 3-TON PAYLOAD New Modular Technology Features Option to Extend Battery Range to More than 200 Miles on a Single Charge.
– Motiv Power Systems, the leading innovator of EV vans, trucks, and shuttle buses driving the backbone of urban commerce, has new field test results on its next-generation technology that redefines range and payload limits for daily-use commercial fleet vehicles.
Foster City, Calif – March 8, 2022
https://www.motivps.com/news/motiv-ev-truck-battery-exceeds-150-miles/

.....
“Our Structural Cell-to-Pack architecture yields higher system-level energy density compared to leading competitors” said Mujeeb Ijaz, founder, and CEO of ONE. “Improving the energy density of electric commercial vehicles will allow for better range, increasing fleet-wide adoption.”

.....
“This is a major milestone for our commercial customers – who deploy EV fleets every day that are critical to driving business results,” said Tim Krauskopf, CEO of Motiv Power Systems. “In fact, the expanded 150-mile range easily doubles the number of addressable routes a fleet can complete with Motiv trucks and buses – which means they’re able to deliver more goods, services, and people for their customers,” Krauskopf added.

------------------------------------

Piston Automotive and Our Next Energy to Collaborate on Future EV Battery
News provided by Piston Group
May 23, 2022
/PRNewswire/
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...llaborate-on-future-ev-battery-301552947.html

.....
The new venture will mass produce ONE's Aries™ battery pack, which uses Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) chemistry in a Structural Cell to Pack™ architecture. In simple terms, this allows ONE's customers to increase range and reduce cost while eliminating nickel- and-cobalt supply chain and safety concerns.

.....
Piston Automotive, a member of the Piston Group companies, has announced a new partnership with Our Next Energy (ONE), a developer of energy storage technology, to manufacture EV batteries at Piston Automotive's facility located in Van Buren Township, Michigan.

.....
"The Piston Group has a proven track record as a high-quality manufacturing partner for battery packs," said Mujeeb Ijaz, founder and CEO of ONE. "Their experience makes them an ideal partner to assemble our Aries pack."

.....
"When the project with ONE surfaced, we knew it would be a great opportunity to explore." said Piston Automotive's President, Bob Holloway. "Our commitment to growth and product expansion over the past decade with other EV industry leading partners has been a key foundation to our success. Piston Automotive's expertise in battery assembly process design, testing and service, combined with ONE's innovative battery pack design is an exciting opportunity and a great fit for our long-term strategy."



------------------------------------

 

[Crissa]

Having ribs in the case does not mean the assembly is NOT structural.

But it does mean that there is structure is in the ribs and not the battery. It means the pack wastes some of its mass specifically on structure instead of batteries.

-Crissa

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