LFP Cybertruck

firsttruck

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Structural battery using rectangular vertical cells instead of cylinders.

Might work with standard LFP sold by CATL and other LFP battery cell makers.

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Magna is charging toward CES 2022 in Las Vegas where it will highlight its commitment to creating a better world of mobility. The company is demonstrating how its complete vehicle expertise and systems approach touches all aspects of the vehicle from electrification to advanced driver assist systems, connectivity and new mobility.

Magna International Inc - Media Kit for CES 2022 Show - Structural Solutions

Structural Battery Enclosure

Structural battery enclosures offer OEMs a bolt-on Body in White solution for fully- electric vehicles and hybrids. This type of battery enclosure protects the entire vehicle – not just the battery – in a crash.
https://www.magna.com/docs/default-...it_eco-innovation_magna.pdf?sfvrsn=c0f7b93a_2

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Competitive advantage/differentiators

• Structural solutions provide protection to the battery while contributing to the structural aspect of the Body in White.

• Depending on application requirements, materials may include steel, aluminum, and composites.

• High-pressure aluminum die casting solutions reduce machining of holes and sealing surfaces.

• Global engineering production footprint. • R&D and advanced engineering for new technical challenges.
Tesla Cybertruck LFP Cybertruck magna-Screenshot_20220424_231736



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Magna's Virtual Presence at CES 2022 - Tour the Booth
https://www.magna.com/CES2022

OEMs wanting more info about Magna's products should contact:
Gabriel Cordoba [email protected]


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Research on structural battery using rectangular vertical cells instead of cylinders.

Design, manufacture and test of a novel structural battery based on sandwich construction
June 2015 Journal of Sandwich Structures and Materials
DOI:10.1177/1099636215591908
Authors:
Abhendra Singh Air Force Institute of Technology
Lei Cao
Jun Ma
Jiho Seo Pennsylvania State University
Charles E. Bakis
Yancheng Zhang
Michael A. Hickner Pennsylvania State University
Chris Rahn Pennsylvania State University
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ctural_battery_based_on_sandwich_construction


Tesla Cybertruck LFP Cybertruck struct-aper-Screenshot_20220424_232014
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Sponsored

 
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Tinker71

Tinker71

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Structural battery using rectangular vertical cells instead of cylinders.

Might work with standard LFP sold by CATL and other LFP battery cell makers.

-------------------------------------------------

Magna is charging toward CES 2022 in Las Vegas where it will highlight its commitment to creating a better world of mobility. The company is demonstrating how its complete vehicle expertise and systems approach touches all aspects of the vehicle from electrification to advanced driver assist systems, connectivity and new mobility.

Magna International Inc - Media Kit for CES 2022 Show - Structural Solutions

Structural Battery Enclosure

Structural battery enclosures offer OEMs a bolt-on Body in White solution for fully- electric vehicles and hybrids. This type of battery enclosure protects the entire vehicle – not just the battery – in a crash.
https://www.magna.com/docs/default-...it_eco-innovation_magna.pdf?sfvrsn=c0f7b93a_2

.....
Competitive advantage/differentiators

• Structural solutions provide protection to the battery while contributing to the structural aspect of the Body in White.

• Depending on application requirements, materials may include steel, aluminum, and composites.

• High-pressure aluminum die casting solutions reduce machining of holes and sealing surfaces.

• Global engineering production footprint. • R&D and advanced engineering for new technical challenges.
magna-Screenshot_20220424_231736.png



--------

Magna's Virtual Presence at CES 2022 - Tour the Booth
https://www.magna.com/CES2022

OEMs wanting more info about Magna's products should contact:
Gabriel Cordoba [email protected]


-------------------------------------------------

Research on structural battery using rectangular vertical cells instead of cylinders.

Design, manufacture and test of a novel structural battery based on sandwich construction
June 2015 Journal of Sandwich Structures and Materials
DOI:10.1177/1099636215591908
Authors:
Abhendra Singh Air Force Institute of Technology
Lei Cao
Jun Ma
Jiho Seo Pennsylvania State University
Charles E. Bakis
Yancheng Zhang
Michael A. Hickner Pennsylvania State University
Chris Rahn Pennsylvania State University
https://www.researchgate.net/public...ctural_battery_based_on_sandwich_construction


struct-aper-Screenshot_20220424_232014.png
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They might as well make an entire car. I didn't see anything on form factor or chemistry of the battery specifically.
 

Qball

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LFP only really loses in the volumetric difference, given the same cell form factor. But it also loses in the weight one as well.

But since we have long range versions, those can have one cell chemistry while the standard range can have the less efficient one. They end up taking the same space.

However, an LFP 4680 factory does not yet exist.

-Crissa

👆👆👆 that!

Also we all know circle has more volume for the same circumference than any other shape especially long rectangles. blade batteries sounds like a good idea but can’t beat cylinders for capacity volume wise if you factor in the mass for casing.

Lithium batteries also been researched for a long time but why is 4680 batteries so revolutionary in capacity and power output? Once teslas get their research going for the LFP batteries then it’s going to be a game changer….again.

Blade structural batteries could work but that’s a lot of redundant cell materials butting against each other and then add cooling system. Tesla’s simple yet ingenious designs are next level and doing thing most don’t even think about but creates vast improvements. We are still at the beginning of Tesla decade!
 
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Crissa

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The blade batteries do catch up to the cylindrical cells because there's always inefficiency in tessellation, too. And they can become structural as they reach all the way across the car. It's a pretty good race.

The rumor is the Tesla is using some blade batteries. But so far no examples have been shown and Tesla has not confirmed it that I know of.

-Crissa
 

Bill906

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What form factor are the LFP batteries in the Chinese Model 3 cars?
 


Delusional

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LFP isn't just a little more durable than other chemistries, it's A LOT more durable. 2500 or more cycles is easily acheivable if the battery isn't abused. Nickel chemistries are very lucky to get 1000 cycles, even if babied. Your "million mile battery" is LFP, no other chemistry.
LFP batteries that die early are poorly manufactured. If there's any water vapor at all while the jelly is rolled, the cell corrodes itself to death.
In cold climates, pre-heating devices for LFP may become an option on cars.

No discussion of how LFP relates to Tesla is complete without touching the issues discussed in this forum post. (hope I'm allowed to link it.)
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/l...it-regulations-affecting-auto-industry.25549/
1. China LFP patents are BEGINNING to expire this year. It will be at least two additional years until they are completely free to use.
2. There was an agreement that no licensing fee would be paid by anyone, as long as the LFP cells were produced AND used in China. That's why Tesla may not be making many LFP elsewhere.
3. China is regulating fire mitigation systems on all "new energy" cars. This could spread around the globe as lithium battery fires can be extremely difficult to extinguish, and dangerous for firefighters.
 

firsttruck

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.....
I didn't see anything on form factor or chemistry of the battery specifically.
Magna used to have a independent business unit Magna Steyr (Austria) that assembled battery packs but in 2015 they sold that unit to SamsungSDI.

Now Magna does battery pack assembly as joint venture with various battery cell makers (SK, LG Energy, etc).

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Samsung SDI to acquire Magna International’s battery pack business
Samsung SDI will acquire the entire battery pack business from Magna Steyr, an Austria-based operating unit of Magna International, including all 264 employees, production and development sites and existing contracts of the business.
Post. 2015 Feb 23
https://www.samsungsdi.com/sdi-news/379.html

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Magna International to Produce Battery Packs for SK On in Canada.
Produce battery packs for the F-150 Lightning.
Magna International, a Canadian mobility technology company that established a joint venture with LG Electronics, will produce battery packs for SK On.
Battery cells used here are supplied by SK On’s Georgia plant in the U.S.
By Michael Herh
2022 April 12
https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=90699

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Magna’s new Michigan plant to supply battery pack parts for Hummer EV.
Will build battery enclosures for the upcoming 2022 GMC Hummer EV.
Posted March 2, 2021
by Tom Lombardo
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/mag...t-to-supply-battery-pack-parts-for-hummer-ev/

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They might as well make an entire car.
......

Magna does make entire cars too. They just don't have the Magna brand on the front badge just like Foxcon or somebody is making Apple, HP, Dell laptops/tablets.

In the past Maga had made ICE cars but they now they are making some EVs too.

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March 02, 2018
News Release - First-Ever All-Electric Jaguar Unveiled at Magna
World premiere of the Jaguar I-PACE
Magna is only contract manufacturer that can build vehicles across a range of propulsion systems Second Jaguar model that will be built by Magna
https://www.magna.com/company/newsr...st-ever-all-electric-jaguar-unveiled-at-magna

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Magna Steyr AG & Co KG is an automobile manufacturer based in Graz, Austria, where its primary manufacturing plant is also located. It is a subsidiary of Canadian-based Magna International and was previously part of the Steyr-Daimler-Puch conglomerate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Steyr

.....
In March 2017 Magna Steyr started to produce the new BMW 5 Series sedan; production is shared with BMW Group's manufacturing plant in Dingolfing, Germany.

In early December 2016 Magna International announced it will build the new Jaguar I-Pace, the company’s first battery electric vehicle. Jaguar later said Magna Steyr will also assemble its E-Pace crossover, starting later in 2017. Magna Steyr confirmed the deal following Jaguar's announcement. Production for the I-Pace started in early 2018.

In January 2020, Sony presented a concept car, the Sony Vision-S, which was developed and built in cooperation with Magna Steyr.

In October 2020 Magna International announced it would build a new electric vehicle, the Fisker Ocean, while taking a 6% ownership interest in Fisker Inc.

Also the Ineos Grenadier 4x4 has been developed with expertise from Magna Steyr, with subsidary Magna Powertrain working on the development of the chassis and suspension and the car being built at the former Smartville plant at Hambach in France.

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Tinker71

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I just bought BYD OTC. They appear to have a pretty good cost advantage with their blade form factor and they are very safe. These would be awesome in a EV assist travel trailer or eRV. Like the one on the Tesla website. They are also coming out with a battery swapping station. I could totally see these along our interstates. Supercharge your rig and swap the battery in your trailer.
 

radami1

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Right now, no one except Tesla even uses 4680s. And they only have the one production line that can consume them.

Right now, they have a surplus of 2170 cells just dying to go into cars. They diverted a bunch into storage last year, but they have excess car production in Texas... why not use it?

-Crissa
Why not ship them to Berlin. Jack up production there for the excess European demand.

Tesla Cybertruck LFP Cybertruck OXY5zBpfGOw-HD
 


firsttruck

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......
No discussion of how LFP relates to Tesla is complete without touching the issues discussed in this forum post. (hope I'm allowed to link it.)
https://diysolarforum.com/threads/l...it-regulations-affecting-auto-industry.25549/
1. China LFP patents are BEGINNING to expire this year. It will be at least two additional years until they are completely free to use.
2. There was an agreement that no licensing fee would be paid by anyone, as long as the LFP cells were produced AND used in China. That's why Tesla may not be making many LFP elsewhere.
3. China is regulating fire mitigation systems on all "new energy" cars. This could spread around the globe as lithium battery fires can be extremely difficult to extinguish, and dangerous for firefighters.
That forum post is a little old. Last post was over 9 months ago (Jul 16, 2021). Long time in battery years.

Patent expiration might not be years away. The patent restrictions might have already expired or will in several months.

Later this year CATL should have open a new battery factory in Germany to supply Tesla Berlin factory.

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2022 Apr 06
CATL To Open 8 GWh Battery Cell Plant In Germany Later This Year The Thuringia factory's production capacity will be later extended to 14 GWh a year after a total investment of $2 billion. This will be CATL's first battery cell production facility outside of China.
By: Dan Mihalascu
https://insideevs.com/news/578233/catl-open-8gwh-battery-cell-plant-germany-later-this-year/
.....
The new battery cell manufacturing facility in Germany marks a significant milestone for CATL's global footprint expansion. It remains to be seen whether the Thuringia factory will supply Tesla's new Gigafactory Berlin-Brandenburg, located some 330 kilometers northeast.

CATL is one of Tesla's main battery cell suppliers, especially in China where the battery packs of the Shanghai-made Model 3 and Model Y EVs mostly feature CATL's lithium iron phosphate (LFP) cells.

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Published 2021 October 21
Europe’s first LFP battery factory to be built in Serbia.
By 2023, the ElevenEs plant will be able to produce LFP cells with a total estimated annual capacity of 300 MWh.
Author: Balkan Green Energy News
https://balkangreenenergynews.com/europes-first-lfp-battery-factory-to-be-built-in-serbia/

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2022 January 12
FREYR Battery and Aleees to pursue LFP cathode manufacturing joint venture in Nordic region. Norway-based FREYR Battery and Taiwan-based Aleees, a producer of lithium iron phosphate (LFP) cathode materials for batteries, have signed a Head of Terms agreement to pursue a joint venture with the ambition to establish an LFP cathode plant in the Nordic region. The joint venture partners will seek to commence production in 2024,
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2022/01/20220112-freyr.html

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intimidator

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Sorry I have to do it again. With the recent announcement that Gigaaustin will produce both 2170 model Y and 4680 model Ys and that GigaBerlin will start with 2170 is clear to me Tesla might be struggling with the 4680s. They also said they won't switch Berlin over until late in the year.

The specifications for the Texas Y with 4680/structural pack are nothing to brag about either. (although they might be sandbagging for now)

LFP batteries and LFP pack design has really improved since 2019. I can't find my source but I thought they recently said that over half the Teslas now come with LFP prismatic cells. We know there are no material constraints with LFP. They are a little safer and more durable.

So my question is why wouldn't Tesla make the 250-300 mile range CT with LFP prismatic cells? Add back 2-300 lbs of structure and reduce the payload by that amount if need be.

My understanding is that mass produced LPF prismatic cells are currently 90 mm tall. The CT battery void is at least 160 mm tall. With the lower density and some intermediate structure there might not be enough room double stack the prismatic in the same space. This might require a 3 cm bulge in the floor pan. I would be ok with it if I got a cheaper CT2 faster.

If the LFP batteries could be made in the 4680 format then no redesign is required. Just a little heavier or maybe the same weight with less range than the CT3.



1650552110202.png
Good analysis.

I too see the ramp of 4680s taking quite some time and it is going to take a lot longer than we originally expected.

That will push off the start of the CyberTruck production.

Lastly, if they come out with the CyberTruck with a lower range than promised, it will be an issue.
 

Cybertruck Hawaii

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The ideal electric vehicle with a 500 mile range battery is that it will be able to store half of the battery for normal driving range and use all of it for a long road trip. Why carry the weight of the battery when you don’t have to?
 

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So listening to the earnings call again I noticed a few things.

The 4680 is not in trouble. While it is possible they will do LFP Cybertrucks, it’s fairly unlikely. Here’s a little quote from the call which hopefully will shed a bit of light on the 4680 performance.

In a nutshell, they’ve absolutely crushed it in terms of scaling the 4680 up and hit all of their targets in terms of cost reduction. They are improving the chemistry and materials which are going into the cells and the cells will be vastly better by the time the Cybertruck is out.

They had a question touching on this specific topic on the call. Quoted below.

Don’t worry about 4680 performance, it’s still on track.

Question: How are the current 4680s performing versus expectations set during the battery day in terms of expected range increase and dollars per kilowatt hour?

Drew: (22:16)
Yeah. We’re working in all the areas we shared on battery day and we have consistent progress across all of those areas towards achieving the five year cost trajectory goals for the costs within our control, but we do not control all of the commodity costs, so that’s an exception I need to call out. Similar to Model 3, it will take us several years to get rate and yields to the point where everything that we’ve discussed is achieved. Our priority was on simplicity and scale during our initial 4680 and structural battery ramps and as we attain our manufacturing goals, we will layer in new material technologies we are developing and higher range structural pack revisions.

Elon Musk: (23:02)
I think maybe in a nutshell, I think it probably is fair to say that 4680 and structural pack will be competitive with the best alternatives later this year and we think will exceed the best alternatives next year.

Drew: (23:23)
Yeah. I mean we have some good existing proofs. We’ve built the facility here in Texas, we know how much we spent on capital equipment in the facility, and it’s more than 5x less than prior technology installation, so we’re saving huge on CapEx. On utilities and personnel, we know what those loads are and how many people are needed to run what is basically a highly automized factory, and we have massive reductions in both of those. So the cost model is well understood. It’s really about rate and yield, which will come in time, as Elon said, over the course of this year and next.
 

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That will push off the start of the CyberTruck production.
Everything Tesla has said on this last call and the previous suggests they are on track for launch in early 2023. Every call they seem a little more confident and more pieces are falling into place.
Sponsored

 
 




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