Possible explanations of the low tow rating?

[dLux]

11k lbs is relative low compared to the gasoline trucks that it suppsosed to be competing with. Given the impressive towing demo, how is it possible that the official towing capacity number is so low? An F-350 Diesel can tow 18k-30k (per Ford). Any ideas?

Sponsored

 

[Keeney]

CT was initially going to be spec'd a lot more like a 3/4 ton. But the end result is more like a 1/2 ton truck.

Some things that limit your towing capacity:
Need for a 5th wheel and/or gooseneck setup that is typically used for higher trailer weights.
Higher capacity / stiffer rear axle and tires for higher tongue weights.
A weight distribution hitch would need to have sufficient frame attachment point.
Total braking capacity of the truck needs to be sufficient to hold the trailer on a hill.
Does CyberTruck even have an electric brake controller?

 

[ÆCIII]

The F350 Diesel is a larger class truck than the Cybertruck was meant to compete with for towing, even though the Cybertruck still beat it easily in the sled pull.

CT was initially going to be spec'd a lot more like a 3/4 ton. But the end result is more like a 1/2 ton truck.

Cybertruck's max payload is 2,500 lbs which is over a full ton and way more than 3/4 ton or 1/2 ton.

The F150 Lightning is rated at 10,000 lbs also, but some have noted efficiency problems with the F150 Lightning when towing.

Time will tell but the Cybertruck performance in the sled pull compared to others, indicates to me that the 11,000 lbs tow rating for the Cybertruck might be a little conservative. However I trust Tesla's 11,000 tow rating more than I'd trust any legacy auto maker's 14,000 lb tow rating at this point.

- ÆCIII

 

[Keeney]

The F350 Diesel is a larger class truck than the Cybertruck was meant to compete with for towing, even though the Cybertruck still beat it easily in the sled pull.



Cybertruck's max payload is 2,500 lbs which is a full ton and way more than 3/4 ton or 1/2 ton.

The F150 Lightning is rated at 10,000 lbs also, but some have noted efficiency problems with the F150 Lightning when towing.

Time will tell but the Cybertruck performance in the sled pull compared to others, indicates to me that the 11,000 lbs tow rating for the Cybertruck might be a little conservative. However I trust Tesla's 11,000 tow rating more than I'd trust any legacy auto maker's 14,000 lb tow rating at this point.

- ÆCIII

The "ton" nomenclature doesn't really hold for light trucks anymore:
1/2 ton" ICE pickups are rated for around 2500-3000 lbs payload.
"3/4 ton" ICE pickups are rated for around 3700-4300 lbs payload.
A "1-ton" F350 with dual rear wheels is going to have payloads up around 6500-8000 lbs

The efficiency of towing is all about the aerodynamics and to some extent the weight of the trailer. Its going to take the same amount of energy to pull a given trailer behind the CT as any other truck, ICE or EV. Maybe more energy behind the CT because the CT's efficient aerodynamics will give the trailer less draft effect. Easiest way to think of it as two trucks sharing 1 battery. And one of the trucks has twice as big of a frontal area as most average trucks.

Tow ratings are a combination of the ability to pull the trailer as well as stop it and control it in all situations and conditions. Even the ICE trucks with the big diesel engines max out on rear hitch tow rating not because they run out of pulling power, but because controlling a trailer from the rear hitch is difficult. Going above 15,000 lbs typically requires a 5th wheel or gooseneck.

Towing heavy things on slopes requires sustained high power output. Something people often confuse with maximum power output. The CT Beast certainly cannot sustain 850 HP for an hour continuously pulling something super heavy up a mountain. Ignoring the fact that 850 HP continuous output would deplete the CT batteries in only 12 minutes (15 with the extender), the motors, controllers, and batteries would likely also overheat.

That F350 Diesel might lose the sled pull for a few minutes, But it can go all day long at its rated towing capacity without overheating.

 

[ÆCIII]

The "ton" nomenclature doesn't really hold for light trucks anymore:
1/2 ton" ICE pickups are rated for around 2500-3000 lbs payload.
"3/4 ton" ICE pickups are rated for around 3700-4300 lbs payload.
A "1-ton" F350 with dual rear wheels is going to have payloads up around 6500-8000 lbs

The efficiency of towing is all about the aerodynamics and to some extent the weight of the trailer. Its going to take the same amount of energy to pull a given trailer behind the CT as any other truck, ICE or EV. Maybe more energy behind the CT because the CT's efficient aerodynamics will give the trailer less draft effect. Easiest way to think of it as two trucks sharing 1 battery. And one of the trucks has twice as big of a frontal area as most average trucks.

Tow ratings are a combination of the ability to pull the trailer as well as stop it and control it in all situations and conditions. Even the ICE trucks with the big diesel engines max out on rear hitch tow rating not because they run out of pulling power, but because controlling a trailer from the rear hitch is difficult. Going above 15,000 lbs typically requires a 5th wheel or gooseneck.

Towing heavy things on slopes requires sustained high power output. Something people often confuse with maximum power output. The CT Beast certainly cannot sustain 850 HP for an hour continuously pulling something super heavy up a mountain. Ignoring the fact that 850 HP continuous output would deplete the CT batteries in only 12 minutes (15 with the extender), the motors, controllers, and batteries would likely also overheat.

That F350 Diesel might lose the sled pull for a few minutes, But it can go all day long at its rated towing capacity without overheating.

Time will tell on the heat and power under sustained load. The full 850 HP is not needed for the sustained amounts of time, but only in brief acceleration instances, so talking about only a few minutes until battery depletion is not relevant. A gas or diesel truck running max HP on a dynamo constantly would last only a fraction of it's rated mileage as well (if the engine didn't overheat first).

We have to remember the Semi does pretty well at towing max gross trailers up a mountain, so I believe Tesla would have designed in some heat management in the Cybertruck for towing heavy loads as well. They've already proven their experience with this with Semis on Donnor Pass. But again time will tell.

And since when is the Cybertruck only being compared to the F350 Diesel all of a sudden? as aren't there a whole lot more F150s and F250s on the road than the heavier F-Series??

Interesting point on the ton nomenclature. Source?

- ÆCIII

 

[ColdRolledSS]

Has anyone seen whether there is an integrated trailer brake controller?

 

[Keeney]

Time will tell on the heat and power under sustained load. The full 850 HP is not needed for the sustained amounts of time, but only in brief acceleration instances, so talking about only a few minutes until battery depletion is not relevant. A gas or diesel truck running max HP on a dynamo constantly would last only a fraction of it's rated mileage as well (if the engine didn't overheat first).

We have to remember the Semi does pretty well at towing max gross trailers up a mountain, so I believe Tesla would have designed in some heat management in the Cybertruck for towing heavy loads as well. They've already proven their experience with this with Semis on Donnor Pass. But again time will tell.

And since when is the Cybertruck only being compared to the F350 Diesel all of a sudden? as aren't there a whole lot more F150s and F250s on the road than the heavier F-Series??

Interesting point on the ton nomenclature. Source?

- ÆCIII

I pulled the numbers from personal knowledge of owning and buying trucks for decades and confirmed against Ford current specs on their website. Didn't check Chevy or RAM, but likely similar. The tow rating varies on the exact configuration of truck, engine, bed, cab, and optional towing and payload upgrades. There are literally dozens of combinations. Those are the max ranges for the well-equipped versions of those trucks. You can get cheaper trucks with small engines and no towing upgrades that will have lower ratings.

Almost all F250's are F250 HD. Not sure they even sell the non HD version anymore.

My point being that the tow rating depends on the truck being designed for the sustained load and handling the trailer in emergency braking, etc. Demos and stunts of pulling locomotives and space shuttles are not going to tell you if the truck will overheat before you get to the top of Vail pass. Or Jack-knife if you have to slam on the brakes on the downhill side in the rain.

You were the one comparing it to an F350 Diesel.

 

[ÆCIII]

I pulled the numbers browsing from personal knowledge of owning and buying trucks for decades and confirmed against Ford current specs on their website. Didn't check Chevy or RAM, but likely similar.

Almost all F250's are F250 HD. Not sure they even sell the non HD version anymore.

My point being that the tow rating depends on the truck being designed for the sustained load and handling the trailer in emergency braking, etc. Demos and stunts of pulling locomotives and space shuttles are not going to tell you if the truck will overheat before you get to the top of Vail pass. Or Jack-knife if you have to slam on the brakes on the downhill side in the rain.

You were the one comparing it to an F350 Diesel.

Your "personal knowledge" for months or decades, is still not a source. You had to have got those numbers from somewhere and not out of thin air. I'm not disputing as I'm genuinely interested which is why I requested a source.

Hauling a fully loaded 80,000 lb gross weight trailer up Donnor pass at 20mph faster than diesel semis is not a 'stunt', but actually a new reality some try to label instead of accepting. Tesla Semis have much more robust stopping power too even with heavy loads, due to their regenerative braking from the motors. They also have power and braking to each wheel individually controlled specifically to assure the Tesla Semi won't 'Jack-Knife' (since you mentioned it).

- ÆCIII

 

[Trekboy]

Some things that limit your towing capacity:
Need for a 5th wheel and/or gooseneck setup that is typically used for higher trailer weights.
Higher capacity / stiffer rear axle and tires for higher tongue weights.
A weight distribution hitch would need to have sufficient frame attachment point.
Total braking capacity of the truck needs to be sufficient to hold the trailer on a hill.
Does CyberTruck even have an electric brake controller?

I was toying with the idea of using a weight distribution hitch for an RV...just for added safety. Do you think Cybertruck will accommodate this? I hadn't thought about frame attachment points.

BTW, I did see somewhere in the UI an electric brake controller

 

[Keeney]

Your "personal knowledge" for months or decades, is still not a source. You had to have got those numbers from somewhere and not out of thin air. I'm not disputing as I'm genuinely interested which is why I requested a source.

Hauling a fully loaded 80,000 lb gross weight trailer up Donnor pass at 20mph faster than diesel semis is not a 'stunt', but actually a new reality some try to label instead of accepting. Tesla Semis have much more robust stopping power too even with heavy loads, due to their regenerative braking from the motors. They also have power and braking to each wheel individually controlled specifically to assure the Tesla Semi won't 'Jack-Knife' (since you mentioned it).

- ÆCIII

Ultimate source would be the published specifications for all the various trucks I have owned and shopped for. Just keep digging on their websites. Especially now with the EV trucks, things are new, so had to dig into that quite a bit

EV trucks are heavier due to the batteries. For some aspects of towing, making the tow vehicle heavier is an advantage. But the battery weight cuts into available payload rating to still be under the GVWR threshold to be classified as a "light truck" under various vehicle regulatory frameworks. The reasons why that threshold is important vary by jurisdiction and application, and some mfg. seem to be bending the rules, and the regulations that care about that classification are evolving as well.

Not sure how we jumped from light trucks to Semi tractors.

 

[Keeney]

see somewhere in the UI an electric brake controller

Bonus - Ford and others charge extra for that option in some packages.

 

[ÆCIII]

Ultimate source would be the published specifications for all the various trucks I have owned and shopped for. Just keep digging on their websites. Especially now with the EV trucks, things are new, so had to dig into that quite a bit

EV trucks are heavier due to the batteries. For some aspects of towing, making the tow vehicle heavier is an advantage. But the battery weight cuts into available payload rating to still be under the GVWR threshold to be classified as a "light truck" under various vehicle regulatory frameworks. The reasons why that threshold is important vary by jurisdiction and application, and some mfg. seem to be bending the rules, and the regulations that care about that classification are evolving as well.

Not sure how we jumped from light trucks to Semi tractors.

The reference to the Semi was to emphasize Tesla has proven experience with heat dissipation and management when towing heavy loads, which I don't doubt is also incorporated into the Cybertruck design also.

So my point in that reference was we might better wait until some proven towing instances before assuming that the Cybertruck would overheat towing uphill or anything. Tesla engineers weren't born yesterday and I'm sure they did their 'homework' on towing. That's why I wrote 'Time will tell.'

- ÆCIII

 

[SentinelOne]

Here's Towing & Hauling Screen Shot - so integrated Trailer Break Controller and light test and who knows what else - but sure it will evolve over time.
Would like add on trailer camera, some sort of hookup mode with rear camera, trailer profiles / scale (eg weight, etc)

I have a 8950 lb Hitch Pull Toy Hauler that I use a Weight Dist Hitch with....CT Beast won't pull at max weight (13k) but I'll be testing to 11k and 1100lb lounge weight!

 

[Keeney]

The reference to the Semi was to emphasize Tesla has proven experience with heat dissipation and management when towing heavy loads, which I don't doubt is also incorporated into the Cybertruck design also.

So my point in that reference was we might better wait until some proven towing instances before assuming that the Cybertruck would overheat towing uphill or anything. Tesla engineers weren't born yesterday and I'm sure they did their 'homework' on towing. That's why I wrote 'Time will tell.'

- ÆCIII

My comment was in relation to your suggestion that the CT could tow loads heaver than 11,000 lbs better than other mfg. trucks could tow over their rated limits. Was not implying that it was incapable of towing its rated load. If they are all using SAE tow rating standards, they should be equally valid.

Sponsored