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Cyberman

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Huh?

With all that background you should understand that chlorine gas reacts with water to produce hydrochloric and hypochlorous acids;

Cl2 + H2O --> 2H+ + Cl- + OCl-

and that if the mix is neutralized with, for example, lye

2Na+ +2OH- + 2H+ + Cl- + OCL- --> Na + + Cl- + 2Na+ + OCl- + 2H20

IOW salt (NaCl) and bleach (NaOCl).

The problem with austenitic stainless is that it, if under tensile stress, eventually cracks in the presence of high (and it doesn't have to be very high) chloride ion concentrations. With a car the problems are calcium chloride thrown on the roads, bleach containing cleansers and, if you live by the sea, airborne salt crystals. The calcium chloride obviously dissociates in water to release chloride ion. Bleach works by oxidizing something and this releases chloride ion. As an example consider ethanol being oxidized to acetic acid:

CH3CH2OH + 2Na+ + 2OCl- --> CH3COO- + H+ + H2O + 2Cl- + 2Na+
So is Cybertruck doomed?!?!?!?
Why do they call it "stainless" if it can be stained? I'm suing somebody
Well, it does say Stainless, not Stainfree. So it stains less than steel
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tmeyer3

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Huh?

With all that background you should understand that chlorine gas reacts with water to produce hydrochloric and hypochlorous acids;

Cl2 + H2O --> 2H+ + Cl- + OCl-

and that if the mix is neutralized with, for example, lye

2Na+ +2OH- + 2H+ + Cl- + OCL- --> Na + + Cl- + 2Na+ + OCl- + 2H20

IOW salt (NaCl) and bleach (NaOCl).

The problem with austenitic stainless is that it, if under tensile stress, eventually cracks in the presence of high (and it doesn't have to be very high) chloride ion concentrations. With a car the problems are calcium chloride thrown on the roads, bleach containing cleansers and, if you live by the sea, airborne salt crystals. The calcium chloride obviously dissociates in water to release chloride ion. Bleach works by oxidizing something and this releases chloride ion. As an example consider ethanol being oxidized to acetic acid:

CH3CH2OH + 2Na+ + 2OCl- --> CH3COO- + H+ + H2O + 2Cl- + 2Na+
lol call me if you need a computer science or discrete mathematics question answered.....

So glad I stayed away from chem!
 

ajdelange

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So is Cybertruck doomed?!?!?!?
Well I'm no metallurgist but I do have a ham radio license, I'm EPA CFC rated and took an afternoon course in sausage making at the local community college. No, of course it's not doomed. Is anyone daft enough to think that Tesla is going to put out trucks that will rot away in one Vermont winter? Tesla has metallurgists. They know which alloys to avoid and how to employ the ones they select to minimize the effects of salt corrosion. People who drive cars in places where salt is used heavily know how to minimize its effect on their cars but it is a problem with any car mainly underneath where salty slush gets thrown leaving a residue of chloride. The solution is, of course, to wash it off. Several companies sell nozzles on a dolly of some sort that hooks up to your pressure washer and rolls under the car. The panels can be simply hosed off. Stay away from car washes that recycle their water. They spray the chloride they just washed off one car onto the next. Also be aware that even in places where the winters aren't harsh municipalities treat unpaved roads with calcium chloride to control dust.
 

ajdelange

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So glad I stayed away from chem!
I only took one course in it years ago but found that I needed to learn a fair amount of, especially, P-chem in order to make beer. It's actually a fascinating subject.
 

DMC-81

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I am not a ChemE but I am a ChemE. I took 1 year ChemE classes and I have the 2yrs full organic full inorganic Spectrocy Pchem (honors) analytical chem and I work in a chem lab and tutored chemistry. I like chemistry but there is no money in chem. NaCl and Cl well there is no free chlorine its a yellow orange gas (used in WW1) and as toxic as toxic can get. Cl atom on a chain is call chlorinated. NaCl is not a polimer chain but you could call it chlorinated and simple water molecules breaks the Na Cl atoms apart
I'm not a ChemE either, but you need more than simple water molecules to break NACL (i.e. salt) apart, otherwise the ocean wouldn't just sting your eyes. :) I have a salt pool which uses a salt chlorinator. The NACL is broken apart by electrolysis. It is a wonderful unit that temporarily uses the CL to sanitize the pool before it rejoins with the NA molecules. There is no free chlorine in the air as it's unstable. Same thing in water as eventually it becomes simple salt again.
I know that I don't have to buy chlorine anymore, so in one sense it's free. ;)
 

ajdelange

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I'm not a ChemE either, but you need more than simple water molecules to break NACL (i.e. salt) apart, otherwise the ocean wouldn't just sting your eyes. I have a salt pool which uses a salt chlorinator. The NACL is broken apart by electrolysis.
I'm not a Chem E either but I have taken a course in Japanese Art History. The sodium and chlorine in NaCl are held together by ionic bonds and water will disrupt those bonds separating it into Na+ and Cl- ions. The dissociation is practically speaking 100%.

Chlorine gas is nasty poisonous because it will steal electrons from anything it can get it from but the chloride ion already has got that electron (from the sodium in the case of table salt) and is thus totally innocuous. It is, of course, found in almost everything we eat or drink.

What happens in your pool chlorinator is that salt is dissociated into Na+ and Cl- by dissolving it in water and an electric current is passed through the solution. At the cathode the Na+ ion is reduced to sodium metal which immediately reduces the water:

2Na + H2O --> 2Na+ + H2 + 2OH-.

A membrane prevents the OH- ions from migrating to the positively charged anode. At the anode the Cl- ions are oxidized to chlorine gas which is circulated to the cathode compartment where it reacts with the sodium hydroxide sequestered there to form bleach:

Cl2 + 2Na+ + 4OH- --> 2Na+ + 2OCl- + 2H2O

The bleach then gets pumped to your pool. There it oxidizes stuff like the ammonium ion from your kids' pee to form monocloramine:

NH4+ + OCl- --> NH2Cl + H2O

One of the interesting properties of monochloramine is that it smells more like chlorine than chlorine does so that if you go to someone's house and notice that his pool smells strongly of chlorine it doesn't mean his chlorinator is over dosing it. It means his kids have peed in it.

It is a wonderful unit that temporarily uses the CL to sanitize the pool before it rejoins with the NA molecules.
In the example I just gave the chlorine stays with the nitrogen. But if it oxidizes something organic, such as the ethanol in the example I gave in the previous post

CH3CH2OH + 2Na+ + 2OCl- --> CH3COO- + H+ + H2O + 2Cl- + 2Na+

then the chloride does come back.

There is no free chlorine in the air as it's unstable. Same thing in water as eventually it becomes simple salt again.
It is quite stable until it encounters water where it disproportionates into hypochlorite and chloride. Free chlorine in the upper atmosphere tears up the ozone layer.

I know that I don't have to buy chlorine anymore, so in one sense it's free.
But you do have to buy salt and electricity.

I apologize for going on at such length here. At one time I was pretty adept at this sort of thing and the direction taken here has shown me that if you don't use it you lose it. This was a great review for me.
 
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CyberGus

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I'm not a ChemE either, but there is 40 years of history for stainless-steel vehicles. They've been in every climate, all sorts of weather, even pulled from a lake, and the stainless is the least of their problems.

A few DeLoreans have rusted out due to salted roads, BUT it was only the frame under the fibreglass shell which is plain old steel, epoxy-coated. Even when those were corroded beyond repair, the exterior stainless was still in good shape. I've never heard of a DeLorean panel needing to be replaced due to corrosion.

Picture+042+%5B1600x1200%5D.jpg


Rinse off your CT after driving in the ocean, and I'm sure you'll be fine.
 

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If it were me. I would do light weight plastic body panels. Dent or crack is a heat gun and some glue fix. Maybe short fiber reinforce plastic panels like motorcycles have and like most ICE bumpers. Cheep Easy Repaired Light weight recyclable plastic body panels and bumpers. SS is for rockets, spoons, forks, pots, and pans not CT or BEV.
Call us when you build something.
 

Cyberman

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I'm not a ChemE either, but there is 40 years of history for stainless-steel vehicles. They've been in every climate, all sorts of weather, even pulled from a lake, and the stainless is the least of their problems.

A few DeLoreans have rusted out due to salted roads, BUT it was only the frame under the fibreglass shell which is plain old steel, epoxy-coated. Even when those were corroded beyond repair, the exterior stainless was still in good shape. I've never heard of a DeLorean panel needing to be replaced due to corrosion.

Picture+042+%5B1600x1200%5D.jpg


Rinse off your CT after driving in the ocean, and I'm sure you'll be fine.
AWESOME
 

Ogre

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Glad I stumbled across this thread with the useful links back to Delorean maintenance info.

Like finding a gold nugget in a pile of 💩
 

Crissa

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Early Atlas begs to differ.
The Centaur upper stages are also made of a type of stainless.

It shows up in alot of the earlier or long-lived designs but due to its cost and wight at the time fell out of use. Stainless steel is the miracle material of the 20th century.

-Crissa
 
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