Stainless steel rolls spotted during delivery to Giga Texas today (9/20/22) ?

[firsttruck]

But then you’re merely describing how every such machine is incrementally “broken” by any use of it.

If that’s all EM meant, it’s uninteresting rather than incorrect.

Elon was probably speaking generally when what probably happens is the stamping dies break much sooner than normal.

Stamping dies are expensive and might take months to get replacements.

Stamping 3mm cold-rolled 30x stainless steel into the shape of a traditional Ford F-150 front fender with it's sharp curves is extra rough on the stamping machine & the stamping die.

Even with 1-2mm regular stainless the die might only last 20 stamping cycles vs normal 2,000-50,000.

Makes a huge difference in cost per piece.

In the past Ford actual made a few (very very few) vehicles with stainless steel outer bodies and those were made with much less than 3mm cold-rolled 30x stainless steel


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Corrosion resistance in Cybertruck may not be perfect
Thread starter David R Kirkpatrick Start date Jan 3, 2020
https://www.cybertruckownersclub.co...ruck-may-not-be-perfect.383/page-3#post-39940

.......
Cyberman
Feb 10, 2021

Actually you can stamp stainless steel, but it's very hard on the dies. A couple of times, in 1936 and in 1960, the officials at Allegheny Ludlum Steel Division collaborated with Ford to produce six stainless steel Ford Deluxe models, and then again in 1960, two Thunderbirds were produced, all to promote the new metal. The top salesman in a division was given the honor of driving it for a year. Finally in 1967, three Lincoln Continentals were made in stainless steel. Allegheny still uses two of these for special events. Out of 11 cars made, 9 are still in use. To make the body parts, Ford waited until the end of production year, because the process was super hard on the dies. According to a retired Allegheny Ludlum employee, the dies were ruined by stamping the stainless steel parts.

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What are the dies used to stamp car bodies made of?
Illie Csorba Former Field Manager at Ford Motor Company (1986–1995)
2017
The art of die making is very mysterious. Sculpting in metal combines the artistic need for esthetics with the physical needs of the engineer.

When the 1990 Pontiac Grand Am went into production, my neighbor in Lansing Michigan was putting in some long hours at the plant that produced stampings for it. It had a very pointy nose for styling and aerodynamics. They could get the dies for the front fenders to stamp the fenders, but only 1,000 before the dies broke.

To keep the dies from breaking, they resorted to using armor alloys for casting the dies. Finishing the dies took ten times the normal time, so GM needed the fenders not to change for a longer period of time. So, the answer is complex.

Normally, dies are made of softer alloys to allow for quick construction. Softer steel is easier to “work” than very hard steel. The trade-off is to stamp for a year or two, and then to give the Vehicle a “face-lift”. Two birds are dispatched with one stone. Worn out softer dies are replaced with new softer dies while achieving fresher styling. The Grand Am required a longer term investment due to it's styling. GM was willing to pay the price in higher tooling cost by lengthening the amount of stampings per die.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-dies-used-to-stamp-car-bodies-made-of

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Specialty materials company Allegheny Technologies Inc (ATI) removes 'priceless' stainless steel cars from Harrison plant, plans to auction them.
Eleven stainless steel cars produced by Allegheny Ludlum (steel company, Pittsburg, PA, US now named Allegheny Technologies Inc.) and Ford. Of the 11, six were 1936 Ford sedans, two were 1960 Thunderbirds and three were 1967 Lincoln Continental convertibles.
By Brian C. Rittmeyer | Thursday, June 4, 2020
https://triblive.com/local/valley-n...rs-from-harrison-plant-plans-to-auction-them/

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The Real Story Behind This Stainless Steel Ford Thunderbird That's Up For Auction
There are many different designs of the Thunderbird, but none quite match up with this 1960 stainless steel Ford Thunderbird.
By Thato Mokau Published Jun 11, 2020
https://www.hotcars.com/the-real-st...-steel-ford-thunderbird-thats-up-for-auction/


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1936 Ford Stainless Steel Tudor Deluxe Touring Sedan Model 68-700 on My Car Story with Lou Costabile
May 9, 2015
Lou Costabile

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1960 Stainless Steel Ford Thunderbird 1936 Ford Tudor Deluxe Touring Sedan 1967 Lincoln Continental
Sep 5, 2020
Ford Thunderbird Forum

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[charliemagpie]

Anything that is welded would need to be refinished due to the heating likely causing color changes in the steel so I imagine there won’t be much welding or they will lose the benefit of no paint. My vote is no welding. They will use structural adhesives to combine parts.

Good point,

On closer inspection, there is a notch, it was either put there to avoid cracking, indicating a bend, or the saw may have overshot a tad, indicating it may be glued.

Thats the beginning and end of my technical analysis. lol

 

[SparkChaser]

At tight bends a hole is drilled to relieve stress. The hole is drilled when it is a flat sheet. This would then be filled with an adhesive to maintain water tightness. Bend radius and thickness of material determine the size of the whole.
Beyond 90 degrees the need is greater due to the concentration of stress. Same principle as a stop drill for a crack. The hole created a smooth transition where there would have been a tight compression or expansion.

 

[Crissa]

At tight bends a hole is drilled to relieve stress. The hole is drilled when it is a flat sheet. This would then be filled with an adhesive to maintain water tightness. Bend radius and thickness of material determine the size of the whole.
Beyond 90 degrees the need is greater due to the concentration of stress. Same principle as a stop drill for a crack. The hole created a smooth transition where there would have been a tight compression or expansion.

Turns the corner from a point to a spring.

-Crissa

 

[cvalue13]

Elon was probably speaking generally when what probably happens is the stamping dies break much sooner than normal.

Stamping dies are expensive and might take months to get replacements.

Stamping 3mm cold-rolled 30x stainless steel into the shape of a traditional Ford F-150 front fender with it's sharp curves is extra rough on the stamping machine & the stamping die.

Even with 1-2mm regular stainless the die might only last 20 stamping cycles vs normal 2,000-50,000.

Makes a huge difference in cost per piece.

In the past Ford actual made a few (very very few) vehicles with stainless steel outer bodies and those were made with much less than 3mm cold-rolled 30x stainless steel

seems to me, that this is all missing their asserted hypothesis: that a SS with the hardness described by EM would not permit of such stamping without unacceptable failure rates of the SS itself - it’s like attempting to bend a cracker: it’s not a problem to apply the effort needed to get the material to respond, the problem is that crackers don’t respond to that effort by bending.

To the degree that is true, it would seem to equally irrelevant whether a press might become damaged by repetitively chewing up useless pieces of failed SS

Seems like saying, “the reason we don’t bend crackers with our hands is that the sharp edges chew up your skin”

 

[SparkChaser]

Here is how it is done on a small part. The process does not have milling to relieve the bend radius, so this is not the method that Tesla will use as far as we know. Thinning the material at the bend will make it much easier. A bit more brittle but I am sure they will find a way to reinforce or anneal the bends for durability.

Bending 3mm stainless steel - YouTube

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

Yup, cost and production time delay might be main reason for no door handles on Cybertruck.

Door handles like they have on the Model X, where there is nothing to pull but just touch, are only aesthetic anyway...might just as well eliminate them and save the hassle/cost/effort. This way those who would mess with the handles have to think of some other way to get in.

I wonder how tall the roll will have to be to do the origami fold in a single piece, maybe 18' (67" for each side, 72" across, 6" under - all total and unsubstantiated guesses) but it would result in a lot of waste. It just occurred to me that maybe they can make each side as single pieces and then weld the cross pieces and front after mounting to the gigacastings. Then a 6' roll might work.

 

[rr6013]

seems to me, that this is all missing their asserted hypothesis: that a SS with the hardness described by EM would not permit of such stamping without unacceptable failure rates of the SS itself - it’s like attempting to bend a cracker: it’s not a problem to apply the effort needed to get the material to respond, the problem is that crackers don’t respond to that effort by bending.

To the degree that is true, it would seem to equally irrelevant whether a press might become damaged by repetitively chewing up useless pieces of failed SS

Seems like saying, “the reason we don’t bend crackers with our hands is that the sharp edges chew up your skin”

Maybe Cybertruck is not all made out of 30X crackers.

A-pillars, O.H. glass roof framework beg extruded form factors. Tesla IIRC admitted B-pillars are not S.S. but stamped. The bottom rail is up for grabs, either folded or extruded.

Sure, 30X crackers are great. But WTF are we busting crackers for a lesser material that after bending/ extrusion is greater than 30X. So all-crackers all the time is less likely.

 

[JBee]

Who said they are stamping at all?
If they are stamping what exactly is being stamped? To cut it and to form it or just one of those?

Not all parts need be made with the same process, or from the same manufacturing line. Each piece would be manufactured individually.

Then what shape is actually being formed? Is it just the three horizontal creases in the doors (two in the front quarter panels) or does it also fold around the corners like a normal door panel, and does it have extra structural elements on the inside of the door? I think forming it only requires the couple of creases, the 3mm SS does most of the rest structurally, the door hinges and lock and the side impact intrusion bar (if there is one) are embedded in the interior cladding and designed to interface with the internal door frame. As per the prototype reveal:

BTW the steel skin here looks thin compared to the windows, do we even know if the CT prototype had 3mm, it might of been just 1,5mm and still hold up to the hammer test.

The front and rear quarter panels, flat frunk and two bend front grill, and rear tailgate is all that is left, that is directly visible. Then you have the cabin, which will likely be made of custom tube profiles, not formed or pressed flat plate. The Structural pack and castings attach to that, and so does the rest. The castings will be aluminum not stainless, the pack likely a mix like on the MY. There's nothing that says it has to be ALL stainless, and there's no reason too.

I still think we are missing a few key manufacturing advancements on how this all works, that Tesla already knows.

 

[Delusional]

From Way Back on page two...

This bend at the red arrow needs to be welded, otherwise there is heaps of waste.

I think that they will be able to punch very large holes out of larger pieces and end up with less waste than you imagine.
I know from doing drywall with many triangular cuts under roof trusses, or above steps, that the cut-out piece that might otherwise be waste... might fit perfectly in some other area. So when Tesla punches out the top line above the window, the cut-out"waste" piece fits perfectly into say... the inside portion of the sail pillar door. The larger the cut-out "waste" section is, the more likely the leftover piece can be used elsewhere. Those doors and window cut-outs are pretty big.
Having said that, in every close-up of prototypes it does appear to be welded where you circled.

 

[cvalue13]

Maybe Cybertruck is not all made out of 30X crackers.

A-pillars, O.H. glass roof framework beg extruded form factors. Tesla IIRC admitted B-pillars are not S.S. but stamped. The bottom rail is up for grabs, either folded or extruded.

Who said they are stamping at all?
If they are stamping what exactly is being stamped? To cut it and to form it or just one of those?

the heck are y’all two talking about?!

I thought this present line of sub-discussion was essentially limited to the old (perhaps outdated) assertions by EM that for the bodywork they were using a steel that was too hard to bend and so that explained the angularity of the CT bodywork

Sure, there are other pieces of the truck than bodywork, and sure they may ultimately use different materials!

 

[greggertruck]

The Truth About Cybertrucks
More likely, the truth is that the Cybertruck is intended to be a low volume production because the chosen manufacturing method does not lend itself to high volume production.

The goal is 250k off the rip, well stated publicly already.

 

[cvalue13]

The goal is 250k off the rip, well stated publicly already.

again, those posted articles are from the days after the initial release

and in any event, FIFY “The goal is 250k in late 2021….”

 

[Crissa]

If you went from brakes that wore out in five years and thousands of stops to ones that wore out in months after dozens of stops...

...pretty sure you'd describe those stops as breaking the brakes.

-Crissa

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