Towing ~10,000 lb boat at the launch ramp

[PungoteagueDave]

Ball weight based on distance back from pin can be calculated with https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/cybertruck/en_us/GUID-EBDD7BD9-8942-45CA-8E0D-26B48185DEB9.html There was an X post by Wes with more brakdowns..


Are there any trailers with regen braking capability? You have an HOA that says you can't have a 1ton truck at your house??? What if it's not a dually? Does eTrailer have a wireless trailer brake controller that can prevent your trailer from locking up in reverse?

Ball weight based on ball location becomes irrelevant when using a weight distributing hitch - it is no longer the downward pressure point because the torsion springs and distribution system essentially lock the trailer to the frame, reduce weight on the truck’s rear axle by putting added pressure down on the ball, while lifting up fore and aft, lessening the tow vehicle’s rear axle weight and pushing down on the front axle and trailer axle, relocating weight from the rear truck axle toward increasing those axle weights.

There are no flat/boat trailers with regen braking because EV regen generally doesn’t use the vehicle’s actual brakes to accomplish the regen function - it uses the drive motor(s) to apply braking, creating regen through reversing the motor function to become an energy generator. There are, however, a couple camper trailers that provide both self-power and regen for the trailer’s built-in high voltage batteries. These are very expensive trailers - you can find out more about them in the out-of-spec videos and others.

Most HOAs disallow trailer parking and many preclude any truck larger than half-ton, thereby excluding any super-duty trucks. Both of my HOAs have these rules. However, most have a provision allowing loading or unloading, otherwise how would anyone move in or out? So I never put my trailers in the driveway for more than 24 hours. Even then, the HOA threatens fines and sends notices working hours or parking there. I believe I would win if disputed, but the fact is that I remove them within the stated correction window, so can do it repeatedly but never over 24 hours.

Any super-duty truck is at least a three-quarter-ton, and it does not have to be a dually. Any Ford F-250 or 350, Or Chevy 2500 is a three-quarter, or one-ton, depending on suspension spring format, whether or not it is also a dually. This is ridiculous because, for example, the F-150 shares the exact same basic cab size and stampings as an F-250 or F-350, with different fenders, hood, lighting to make them appear different - but every 4-door Ford pickup cab has the same doors and structure. The cab and bed sits on heavier or lighter frames, but an F-150 with a 6.5-ft bed is the exact same length and width as an F-250 or 350 with a 6.5 ft bed. The super-duty is taller by a couple inches due to frame and springs being sized up, but the wheels on all can be 20”, so the current reality is that it isn’t obvious by looking at a full-size truck whether it is half ton, 3/4 ton, or one ton. However, these outdated rules prevail and are rigorously enforced.

Regarding your question about wireless brake control - these would defeat a major benefit of integrated towing electronics as found on many modern pickup trucks, including the Cybertruck. These systems perform multiple functions including electronic anti-sway using the truck’s internal dynamic and brakes. All braked trailers will lock the brakes in reverse unless the brakes are somehow locked out. Surge brakes do it mechanically, and a pin is used to lock out braking action for reversing, or in the case of electronic or electric brakes, the system requires a reversing light signal to allow the brakes to be released while in reverse.

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[MCraft99]

Ball weight based on ball location becomes irrelevant when using a weight distributing hitch - it is no longer the downward pressure point because the torsion springs and distribution system essentially lock the trailer to the frame, reduce weight on the truck’s rear axle by putting added pressure down on the ball, while lifting up fore and aft, lessening the tow vehicle’s rear axle weight and pushing down on the front axle and trailer axle, relocating weight from the rear truck axle toward increasing those axle weights.

There are no flat/boat trailers with regen braking because EV regen generally doesn’t use the vehicle’s actual brakes to accomplish the regen function - it uses the drive motor(s) to apply braking, creating regen through reversing the motor function to become an energy generator. There are, however, a couple camper trailers that provide both self-power and regen for the trailer’s built-in high voltage batteries. These are very expensive trailers - you can find out more about them in the out-of-spec videos and others.

Most HOAs disallow trailer parking and many preclude any truck larger than half-ton, thereby excluding any super-duty trucks. Both of my HOAs have these rules. However, most have a provision allowing loading or unloading, otherwise how would anyone move in or out? So I never put my trailers in the driveway for more than 24 hours. Even then, the HOA threatens fines and sends notices working hours or parking there. I believe I would win if disputed, but the fact is that I remove them within the stated correction window, so can do it repeatedly but never over 24 hours.

Any super-duty truck is at least a three-quarter-ton, and it does not have to be a dually. Any Ford F-250 or 350, Or Chevy 2500 is a three-quarter, or one-ton, depending on suspension spring format, whether or not it is also a dually. This is ridiculous because, for example, the F-150 shares the exact same basic cab size and stampings as an F-250 or F-350, with different fenders, hood, lighting to make them appear different - but every 4-door Ford pickup cab has the same doors and structure. The cab and bed sits on heavier or lighter frames, but an F-150 with a 6.5-ft bed is the exact same length and width as an F-250 or 350 with a 6.5 ft bed. The super-duty is taller by a couple inches due to frame and springs being sized up, but the wheels on all can be 20”, so the current reality is that it isn’t obvious by looking at a full-size truck whether it is half ton, 3/4 ton, or one ton. However, these outdated rules prevail and are rigorously enforced.

Regarding your question about wireless brake control - these would defeat a major benefit of integrated towing electronics as found on many modern pickup trucks, including the Cybertruck. These systems perform multiple functions including electronic anti-sway using the truck’s internal dynamic and brakes. All braked trailers will lock the brakes in reverse unless the brakes are somehow locked out. Surge brakes do it mechanically, and a pin is used to lock out braking action for reversing, or in the case of electronic or electric brakes, the system requires a reversing light signal to allow the brakes to be released while in reverse.

That's so strange that your HOAs don't allow 3/4 or 1 ton non duallys. Most people around here have one as their daily. I'm not so sure you should be thinking that the pin weight doesn't matter with the weight distribution hitch, because the steel receiver is attached to an aluminum frame. I don't know the breaking limits of the attachments but the ball weight is lowered, the further you go past the pin because it actually puts out more downforce at the point of attachment, like a lever. Similar to how breaker bars work. The further away you are from the fulcrum, the less weight/force you need to exert on it. That force is multiplied beyond how much you're putting at the ball location.

The reason this matters, is because if you hit a pothole, the amount of pin weight is multiplied vastly for a short while, and aluminum doesn't bend, it will permanently crack if beyond the stress limits. Body on steel frame vehicles don't have this problem because the towing limits, based on how much weight is distributed to both axles and the ability to stop the load, is far below the limits of the steel frame's bending limit. This was at the focus of jerryrigseverything's video where he tested the maximum weight that could be exerted on the ball with an excavator. It's the reason he stopped towing with his CT, even though what he was towing, was always within the 11k limit and distributed correctly. In an ideal situation where the towing load is always on a flat plane and consistent, this concern never comes into play. But in the real world, at highway speeds, where roads can be unpredictable, there becomes more variables involved. Just like how the Tundra is theoretically able to pull the space shuttle, but in a very controlled environment, with the correct trailering equipment.


Also, I thought superduty cabs had bigger interior dimensions than the 1/2tons.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

That's so strange that your HOAs don't allow 3/4 or 1 ton non duallys. Most people around here have one as their daily. I'm not so sure you should be thinking that the pin weight doesn't matter with the weight distribution hitch, because the steel receiver is attached to an aluminum frame. I don't know the breaking limits of the attachments but the ball weight is lowered, the further you go past the pin because it actually puts out more downforce at the point of attachment, like a lever. Similar to how breaker bars work. The further away you are from the fulcrum, the less weight/force you need to exert on it. That force is multiplied beyond how much you're putting at the ball location.

The reason this matters, is because if you hit a pothole, the amount of pin weight is multiplied vastly for a short while, and aluminum doesn't bend, it will permanently crack if beyond the stress limits. Body on steel frame vehicles don't have this problem because the towing limits, based on how much weight is distributed to both axles and the ability to stop the load, is far below the limits of the steel frame's bending limit. This was at the focus of jerryrigseverything's video where he tested the maximum weight that could be exerted on the ball with an excavator. It's the reason he stopped towing with his CT, even though what he was towing, was always within the 11k limit and distributed correctly. In an ideal situation where the towing load is always on a flat plane and consistent, this concern never comes into play. But in the real world, at highway speeds, where roads can be unpredictable, there becomes more variables involved. Just like how the Tundra is theoretically able to pull the space shuttle, but in a very controlled environment, with the correct trailering equipment.


Also, I thought superduty cabs had bigger interior dimensions than the 1/2tons.

Ford superduties (F350 and F250) have identical interior dimensions to an equivalent can F150. I’ve owned all three recently, in King Ranch and Platinum trims, there is no difference. The superduties sometimes lag a year or two when Ford upgrades the truck, so when they went all aluminum, for example, the superduties came a year later. They can look different, with the superduties having a tougher appearance, but that’s done with hang on optics like headlights, rooftop truck lights, aggressive fenders, etc. Definitely the same basic cabs.

Yeah, HOAs are a two edged sword. I bite the bullet there given our lifestyle, which is split between three homes, plus we spend 3-4 months per year overseas bicycling and motorcycling, so like being able to lock and leave in a gated community. The price is freedom to do what we want in some respects.

I am aware of the aluminum casting concern and its brittle nature, which is why I wish Tesla would publish specs for weight distribution, just like every other OEM. I am also in the mode of currently using the CT for the big boat tow only locally, for service, to/from storage, etc. The range issue requires hiring a guy with a super duty truck twice per year for the highway pulls. As pointed out above, the CT isn’t suited for its max towing specs.

 

[mongo]

That's so strange that your HOAs don't allow 3/4 or 1 ton non duallys. Most people around here have one as their daily. I'm not so sure you should be thinking that the pin weight doesn't matter with the weight distribution hitch, because the steel receiver is attached to an aluminum frame. I don't know the breaking limits of the attachments but the ball weight is lowered, the further you go past the pin because it actually puts out more downforce at the point of attachment, like a lever. Similar to how breaker bars work. The further away you are from the fulcrum, the less weight/force you need to exert on it. That force is multiplied beyond how much you're putting at the ball location.

The reason this matters, is because if you hit a pothole, the amount of pin weight is multiplied vastly for a short while, and aluminum doesn't bend, it will permanently crack if beyond the stress limits. Body on steel frame vehicles don't have this problem because the towing limits, based on how much weight is distributed to both axles and the ability to stop the load, is far below the limits of the steel frame's bending limit. This was at the focus of jerryrigseverything's video where he tested the maximum weight that could be exerted on the ball with an excavator. It's the reason he stopped towing with his CT, even though what he was towing, was always within the 11k limit and distributed correctly. In an ideal situation where the towing load is always on a flat plane and consistent, this concern never comes into play. But in the real world, at highway speeds, where roads can be unpredictable, there becomes more variables involved. Just like how the Tundra is theoretically able to pull the space shuttle, but in a very controlled environment, with the correct trailering equipment.


Also, I thought superduty cabs had bigger interior dimensions than the 1/2tons.

The way a WD hitch works is by countering the torque produced by a ball type hitch. So the inital lever arm doesn't have the same impact on receiver stresses.

 

[MCraft99]

The way a WD hitch works is by countering the torque produced by a ball type hitch. So the inital lever arm doesn't have the same impact on receiver stresses.

I understand how they work, but we're talking about the CT's steel receiver attached to the aluminum casting with bolts and spot welds. The amount of force applied to these different bonding points can still exceed their yield & tensile strength.

 

[mongo]

I understand how they work, but we're talking about the CT's steel receiver attached to the aluminum casting with bolts and spot welds. The amount of force applied to these different bonding points can still exceed their yield & tensile strength.

Zach bent/ peeled the receiver and casting away from the tailgate towers, and the receiver stayed attached.
With a WD, there would be a vertical load, but no peel since the torque direction is basically reversed. Torque is also referenced to the receiver-ball carrier junction, not the ball itself (at least while the the WD is loaded)

 

[MCraft99]

Zach bent/ peeled the receiver and casting away from the tailgate towers, and the receiver stayed attached.
With a WD, there would be a vertical load, but no peel since the torque direction is basically reversed. Torque is also referenced to the receiver-ball carrier junction, not the ball itself (at least while the the WD is loaded)

I don't have specific numbers to discuss here, it's more of a general talk about the concern with your trailer causing the tow vehicle to become damaged on bumpy/pothole filled/road debris/emergency braking/whatever real life scenario. Even with a WD hitch, the force applied to the tailgate towers and spot welds along the casting, can vary, depending on your speed and angle. Yes, his video was not similar to real world towing, because you don't slowly add vertical forces to just the ball and stinger when driving. Even if the receiver maintains connection to one portion of the casting, it's still over if any of the many bonding points crack.

 

[mongo]

I don't have specific numbers to discuss here, it's more of a general talk about the concern with your trailer causing the tow vehicle to become damaged on bumpy/pothole filled/road debris/emergency braking/whatever real life scenario. Even with a WD hitch, the force applied to the tailgate towers and spot welds along the casting, can vary, depending on your speed and angle. Yes, his video was not similar to real world towing, because you don't slowly add vertical forces to just the ball and stinger when driving. Even if the receiver maintains connection to one portion of the casting, it's still over if any of the many bonding points crack.

Yah, it varies. Main point being though, the ball position on a WD setup doesn't have the same meaning/ impact as on a non WD setup. Rather than the ball being a pure lever applying downward torque on the receiver, the entire hitch/ball carrier assembly is applying upward torque on the receiver along with a downward vertical load.

 

[MCraft99]

Yah, it varies. Main point being though, the ball position on a WD setup doesn't have the same meaning/ impact as on a non WD setup. Rather than the ball being a pure lever applying downward torque on the receiver, the entire hitch/ball carrier assembly is applying upward torque on the receiver along with a downward vertical load.

Yes, it's shifting the lever further towards the truck, reducing the downwards force on the receiver and its bonding points with the casting. But in a scenario where the trailer tires hit a pothole, the WD effect loses much of its benefit of shifting the force further forward. Like the Tundra pulling a shuttle in 4Lo at slow speed and trailering equipment to reduce the tongue weight, it only works in perfectly ideal scenarios, not so much in real world conditions that are constantly changing.

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