Why has my battery not lasted?

Faffle

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This is an EV Battery related, not specific to Tesla. I own a 2015 and 2018 Kia Soul ev. I obviously loved the first one so much that we have another one in the family. The only gripe is battery longevity. Kia has a great a warranty, 70% soh and they replace the pack (refurbished from other packs). My 2015 only had 40k miles in 2019 when the pack was replaced! The 2018 is currently at the dealership waiting on a new battery! They say there is one ahead of it and it's been there 6 months waiting!!!!!! They provided a rental car, but it still sucks. And anyone counting on future battery tech to be built into the older ev's don't hold your breath, they make their money on building the car, not on replacing batteries.

I knew that my 2015 was the first of its kind for Kia and thus might have issues but i frankly couldn't afford a model S. However, the 2018 is performing exactly as well. I only charge it up 80% and rarely use Chademo fast charging. My battery longevity is nothing like what Tesla publishes! Why? This is what makes me afraid to buy a GM, Ford, or Rivian. Not to mention the Kia Ev6 or latest Hyundia.

So for those that got lost in my long explanation.... Why do my batteries fail when Tesla has much better longevity?
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Faffle

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Better engineering.
Well obviously that is true in a lot of areas
I agree with everything you said. I guess i wish there was a way to determine the battery life in all these new vehicles coming out. Basing longevity on battery chemistry or manufacturer seems a fools errand. Longevity seems to vary by car manufacturer using the exact same batteries. Maybe it's the cooling, charging, buffer size, or perhaps bms makes the most difference. Tesla seems like the only safe investment right now even if i hate using the word investment and car in the same sentence.
 

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I think the early Kia Soul cars had the same design issue as the Nissan LEAF that I had...The battery pack is not cooled or temperature-managed. So when it is 100 degrees plus on the pavement, the battery gets heated as well (and possibly overheated)...So the batteries in the cars in the cooler regions (like the Pacific Northwest) did better, but batteries in the desert areas (like Phoenix) suffered from the heat.

In the future, I wouldn't consider purchasing an electric car that doesn't have a temperature-controlled battery management system...
 
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Faffle

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I think the early Kia Soul cars had the same design issue as the Nissan LEAF that I had...The battery pack is not cooled or temperature-managed. So when it is 100 degrees plus on the pavement, the battery gets heated as well (and possibly overheated)...So the batteries in the cars in the cooler regions (like the Pacific Northwest) did better, but batteries in the desert areas (like Phoenix) suffered from the heat.

In the future, I wouldn't consider purchasing an electric car that doesn't have a temperature-controlled battery management system...
Could be. My memory tells me they were cooled but not heated but it could be the opposite. Anyway, i'm in the pnw and while it's mostly mild, it must take only a few days a year of an extreme to really make the difference.
 


ldjessee

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Yeah, after owning the Leaf, I will not buy another EV where the battery pack is not both actively heated and cooled. Just need to have both for battery longevity.
Also the chemistry, the Battery Management/Charger controller, and if the pack is not designed well can cause problems... and if they get out of balance... that is a quick way for the pack to degradate, but you could take the pack apart, discard/replace or recondition the out of balance cells, and rebuild the pack.
 

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I assume this is the 2017 with 93 miles range? If not the math works out a bit different, but the result is similar.

The lower range, the more battery cycles to hit a given mileage. Your Kia with 93 miles range has as many battery cycles as my Model Y with 150,000 miles. Since you have such low range to begin with, you are more likely to charge it to 90% capacity just to do basic things which degrades The cells even faster. Then once the battery started to degrade, you would be forced to max out the charge more and more often, turning it into a positive feedback loop.

I really think these early EVs from everyone but Tesla were designed for very low mileage use.
 

DMC-81

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Yeah, after owning the Leaf, I will not buy another EV where the battery pack is not both actively heated and cooled. Just need to have both for battery longevity.
I did a lot of reading before settling on my first BEV. Battery life was my number one question, and this is the reason it will be a Tesla. They seem to be in the lead on battery tech.

Case in point: The toll free number for questions about the upcoming Silverado EV are answered by the same call center handling the massive Bolt recall. I called to see if the Silverado EV had this temperature management system. The representative didn't know. This lapse and " Press 1 for the Bolt recall, 2 for the Silverado EV" does not instill confidence IMO.
 

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This is an EV Battery related, not specific to Tesla. I own a 2015 and 2018 Kia Soul ev. I obviously loved the first one so much that we have another one in the family. The only gripe is battery longevity. Kia has a great a warranty, 70% soh and they replace the pack (refurbished from other packs). My 2015 only had 40k miles in 2019 when the pack was replaced! The 2018 is currently at the dealership waiting on a new battery! They say there is one ahead of it and it's been there 6 months waiting!!!!!! They provided a rental car, but it still sucks. And anyone counting on future battery tech to be built into the older ev's don't hold your breath, they make their money on building the car, not on replacing batteries.

I knew that my 2015 was the first of its kind for Kia and thus might have issues but i frankly couldn't afford a model S. However, the 2018 is performing exactly as well. I only charge it up 80% and rarely use Chademo fast charging. My battery longevity is nothing like what Tesla publishes! Why? This is what makes me afraid to buy a GM, Ford, or Rivian. Not to mention the Kia Ev6 or latest Hyundia.

So for those that got lost in my long explanation.... Why do my batteries fail when Tesla has much better longevity?
I suppose the short answer was better engineering, but that is vague and I cannot do much better. Tesla has the best battery researchers and R&D in the world, but they also have their vehicles fully integrated and their power management is part of that i tegrwtion. If you want your batteries to last you have to be monitoring every system and tweaking how the power is used dynamically. This might be a bit closer to the 'better engineering' answer.
 


Crissa

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Tesla is just ahead. They were making modern EVs when Kia wasn't. Kia was playing catch-up with Nissan at the time, and tried to make something that worked...

...but without long-range versions, without LFP batteries, without the experience, they were used within an inch of their capacity. And while Portland Oregon is supposed to be temperate, well, this year has been temperate, the last few have not. The damage from last year's heatwave isn't replicated in the historical or prehistoric record for the area.

And that is going to do in a car that's just meant to go to and from work and charge a couple times a week at most.

-Crissa
 

swengl

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Tesla has more data to analyze (more packs on the road) and they can make decisions about changes to their battery geometries and chemistries based on real world data that may other manufacturers just don't have yet. Tesla also was smart enough to partner with Panasonic, an established company who have been making Li-Ion battery cells for a long time and already have the factories and know-how to generate a high yield, quality product. The fact that Tesla puts so much money into R&D (and not into advertising) is another contributing factor.
 

larryboy31

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Tesla is just ahead. They were making modern EVs when Kia wasn't. Kia was playing catch-up with Nissan at the time, and tried to make something that worked...

...but without long-range versions, without LFP batteries, without the experience, they were used within an inch of their capacity. And while Portland Oregon is supposed to be temperate, well, this year has been temperate, the last few have not. The damage from last year's heatwave isn't replicated in the historical or prehistoric record for the area.

And that is going to do in a car that's just meant to go to and from work and charge a couple times a week at most.

-Crissa
I don't understand all I know about EVs but this might be a clue. Aptera just released some info about their 40KW battery. It is rated at 43 KW but the max output appears to be limited to 41KW.
This would give about a 5% cushion even if the battery was charged to the max every time. Perhaps Kia was just charging closer to the max than others.
 

Crissa

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I don't understand all I know about EVs but this might be a clue. Aptera just released some info about their 40KW battery. It is rated at 43 KW but the max output appears to be limited to 41KW.
This would give about a 5% cushion even if the battery was charged to the max every time. Perhaps Kia was just charging closer to the max than others.
Yes. Part of that is experience.

But the other part is that short-range EVs were sold to people who needed longer-range cars. The range really needs to fit your needs, and it's something that we haven't really had experience with.

Think power tools - my DeWalts haven't ever had their batteries fail, but they have batteries designed for a pro, hence they cost a pretty penny. But the iWorx and Milwaukee have had several die just sitting around. Is this same data? Or was it because the iWorx had bigger motors on smaller batteries while the DeWalts had bigger batteries with smaller motors?

And then you had the problem of temperature. Cars sit outside, where they're exposed to the worst. The Soul EV isn't well insulated and doesn't have great thermal mass. And it had no way to regulate that battery pack temperature against the actual environment or heavy use. And again, the smaller pack gets stressed more, and heats up more.

A car traction battery can't just radiate the heat away like my Zero's pack can, either. Or be fitted with a thermal jacket just for the extreme cold.

There's also that they switched battery sources, too. Everyone has. Some of the earlier batteries just weren't fit for EV purpose.

And it all comes back to experience. The battery needs to fit the use -and we have batteries now that can take full, frequent cycling better, batteries that are better at temperature ranges, the knowledge that battery thermal management is more important, that use cycling should fit the size and thermal management of the battery.

-Crissa
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