Winch - What is the priority?

[SwampNut]

What can Tesla do to enable a well integrated winch system for Cybertruck?

Bump up the voltage from a regular everyday 12v winch to reduce current. BUT!!! There are dozens or hundreds of good winches already out there, that work fine, and cost $400-600. What do you think a specialty Tesla winch will cost? Would you pay it?

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[Bill906]

I wonder if the 12V system in a Tesla could handle the power requirements of a winch. ICE vehicles have 12V systems that are designed/sized to start the engine. Not sure the new Teslas, including the CT, have the amps available for something as power hungry as a winch.

Anyone know what the current draw is on a decently powered 3rd party 12v winch?

Personally, I think the best option would be if Tesla made the winch an option and used a motor/inverter combo powered by the high voltage system like the heat pump compressor is. All other options would be poor in my opinion.

 

[SwampNut]

My model 3 certainly does not. No idea what they will do with the CT. I suspect they would make some sort of allowance for this. The battery in my car is tiny and the supply to it is also. I think I read that the converter supplies 10 amps, not sure my memory is correct. The winch on my Gladiator, when loaded hard, measured out over 250 amps. The fuse on it was a 400.

 

[CyberGus]

I'm just gonna hook a cable to the wiper

 

[Deleted member 3316]

I'm just gonna hook a cable to the wiper

Yes I think this wins the discussion.

 

[JBee]

If people are going to be adamant that they need a drive motor powered PTO type winch that is synced to vehicle speed, then use one of these bog out winches. (Note you need two or a differential locker for best results)

 

[Wood Wombat]

Something attached to the traction battery would be pretty expensive, tho. You'd need double contactors and while it would probably be superior to trying to tap into the drive motors, at least in variability... That's a pretty expensive modification.

I don't think that this is as hard as you think. There are numerous items powered from the HV pack. The heat pump compressor, the 12V inverter, 110/240V AC inverter and so on. The winch should just be another load.

My ideal would be a 5-10kW 3 phase AC motor with variable speed inverter powered from the traction pack, cooled by the same loop that everything else uses. Wireless variable speed control, and maybe software to link the winch to the throttle pedal so you can drive and the wheels will turn without too much slip. Integrate load on the winch with standard slip sensors in the wheels for optimal extraction without danger of loosening the line and then dropping back on it.

A setup like this would be as light as possible, require minimal extra hardware, and have the ultimate in control.

 

[Wood Wombat]

Bump up the voltage from a regular everyday 12v winch to reduce current. BUT!!! There are dozens or hundreds of good winches already out there, that work fine, and cost $400-600. What do you think a specialty Tesla winch will cost? Would you pay it?

Having used my winch for self recovery and other purposes far more than I would like, I would definitely pay money for a good HV variable speed winch over 12V junk. I have been in situations where winch after winch is overheating because a convoy is stuck at the bottom of a valley because it rained, and there is no other way out.

A winch built on traction motor technology could have 100% duty cycle and be fully sealed.

Note that the winch on my 4WD is a Warn 9500 XP which is one of the best on the market but it still sucks.

 

[Deleted member 3316]

If people are going to be adamant that they need a drive motor powered PTO type winch that is synced to vehicle speed, then use one of these bog out winches. (Note you need two or a differential locker for best results)

Have you seen the bush winch?


The issue with this type of system is it is only useful for self rescue. Unless you can lift and independently control a single wheel……

Quad motor might have a few more tricks up it’s sleeve…..

Could be the only aftermarket accessory required is a new wheel and fairlead combination.

 

[Quicksilver]

I didn't read all the comments so this may have been covered.
Most vehicles I operated in the military had either a PTO or hydraulic winch on the front bumper.
My ideal set up would be to put a Ranch Hand bumper on front with a Reese hitch receiver on it.
I had one of those installed on our new RAM 3500 (the "Diesel Pig") due to our endless supply of suicidal deer here in Alabama.
Mount the winch on a plate that will go into the receiver and pull that way. It would also go it the hitch that will be on the rear of the truck. Keep it in a protected case that could be secured in the bed when not in use. That would protect it from the elements or theft.
As far as power I would like to see Tesla put a port on both ends you could plug a set of jumper cables into that could be used to power the winch (or other high voltage draws) and to jump start stranded ICE vehicles.
IMHO you would really have to work hard to get a CT stuck but Murphy's Law knows no bounds.

 

[Crissa]

I don't think that this is as hard as you think. There are numerous items powered from the HV pack. The heat pump compressor, the 12V inverter, 110/240V AC inverter and so on. The winch should just be another load.

I didn't say it was impossible, or not without precedent, I said difficult and more dangerous. More expensive.

-Crissa

 

[Wood Wombat]

I didn't say it was impossible, or not without precedent, I said difficult and more dangerous.

-Crissa

Based on what though? Small EV (~10kW) drive units are common these days, usually around the 120VDC but easily changed to 400VDC, and that is literally all that is required. There is nothing complex or dangerous about this. The rest of the winch is just based on typical recovery winch of the appropriate rating, so planetary gearsets, built in brake etc.

I have already talked to electric motor manufacturers in China about this.

 

[JBee]

I don't think that this is as hard as you think. There are numerous items powered from the HV pack. The heat pump compressor, the 12V inverter, 110/240V AC inverter and so on. The winch should just be another load.

My ideal would be a 5-10kW 3 phase AC motor with variable speed inverter powered from the traction pack, cooled by the same loop that everything else uses. Wireless variable speed control, and maybe software to link the winch to the throttle pedal so you can drive and the wheels will turn without too much slip. Integrate load on the winch with standard slip sensors in the wheels for optimal extraction without danger of loosening the line and then dropping back on it.

A setup like this would be as light as possible, require minimal extra hardware, and have the ultimate in control.

I didn't say it was impossible, or not without precedent, I said difficult and more dangerous. More expensive.

-Crissa

There's no real reason to think that 400V is harder or more dangerous to do, but there are reasons to do a higher voltage for the winch motors to improve performance. The difference between running it off a 240V AC supply or 400V DC in a winch application will be trivial though. There it will mostly come down to how much power can be reliably supplied from the inboard built in CT inverter.

If the intention is for a aftermarket winch then if you say 5-10kW AC would suffice but needs a VSD (Variable Speed Drive) to regulate RPM so you can power it from the traction pack, the question then becomes which way is more efficient to do so. Given that an inverter will be included in the CT in the 7-10kW range, sourcing a 240V motor and compatible 240V VSD is likely to be simpler and more cost effective, but adding a VSD will add to cost as well.

At that voltage and power level air cooling should more than suffice, adding it to the CT cooling system for a intermittent load is likely to result in more unintended failures rather than solve them. It would be easier to thermally limit the winch motor and reduce RPM via the VSD in real time to keep it at operating temperature.

If I was Tesla, and the winch or ePTO setup was to be integrated into the CT, and in an ideal world where I could swing the procurement and budget team to my side, I'd make a 400V 3 phase inverter that can also run as a VSD that is powered from the traction pack. That would give me 3-5kW per phase in 240V for standard plugs and appliances and 9-15kW 415V in 3 phase, that could also double as a VSD to drive any variable speed/load ePTO implement including the winch. Technically, this could also be bidirectional, and double duty as the L1 + L2 CT charger. Obviously, the 240V output would be disabled via contactors on the 240V side when used in variable ePTO mode. In fixed 3 phase mode, 240V could still run of each circuit. Additionally, this would be ideal for V2X setups, plus would be perfect for V2V charging in the sticks at about 50kmh. Now seeing we are now using a bi-directional VSD/inverter/charger setup, I would add a MPPT regulator for 400V PV to feed directly into the VSD DC bus, and from where it can either charge the battery or supply and external load via the plugs. One string at say 5-10kW would do for me.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I think Tesla is in a great position to make a high voltage winch. They make millions of electric motors a year, perhaps repurpose a motor from the ATV or whatever. If anyone can make a high voltage winch at low cost (not price) it’s going to be them. They might charge more than after market but I don’t think their cost would be much more than aftermarket companies.

So many benefits to a high voltage winch. Plus they could integrate it software and hardware wise much better than aftermarket.
I’d definitely buy that option if it’s available!

 

[Crissa]

If you don't think handling direct voltage off the traction battery is not more dangerous or difficult...

...I do not respect your risk assessment.

There's reasons why household voltage is not 400, and there are reasons why you'd need additional breakers and contactors for such an implementation. And why you'd have to have it installed not by a standard mechanic.

More dangerous of a modification doesn't mean it wouldn't perform better.

-Crissa

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