ZERO PUBLIC ROAD TOWING TESTS

[cvalue13]

When we see public towing, one CT will be towing anther CT

ah, the regen perpetual motion machine

Sponsored

 

[Haopec]

Can you remind me of the extensive years of towing tests done by Ford, Hummer, and Rivian released before their production?
Apparently, I missed them living under a rock.

This was one of Rivian's stories about towing in the Mojave. They should have done more testing.. my R1T still maxes out regen with my 5k boat coming down from the Sierras and I have to use my brakes.. BLAH!
https://stories.rivian.com/hot-weather-towing

 

[scottf200]

Towing With The Silverado EV! Everything You Need To Know About Towing With Chevy's Electric Pickup

About 11 minutes in he talks to the 'lead' on the 4-5 team towing engineer team. Professional stuff vs PR.

This was one of Rivian's stories about towing in the Mojave. They should have done more testing.. my R1T still maxes out regen with my 5k boat coming down from the Sierras and I have to use my brakes.. BLAH!
https://stories.rivian.com/hot-weather-towing

Kyle really did a nice job of asking various tech questions and injecting his towing experience on other vehicles with the towing engineer. Lot of trade off discussions with maximizing performance/regen with all the safety aspect of towing a trailer (sway, etc). They also talk about regen vs trailer physical brakes being used for safety and ways to adjust that (gain - at your own risk/etc).

 

[Coolbreeze704]

Towing is for real trucks. Trucks that do truck things.

 

[Crissa]

This was one of Rivian's stories about towing in the Mojave. They should have done more testing.. my R1T still maxes out regen with my 5k boat coming down from the Sierras and I have to use my brakes.. BLAH!
https://stories.rivian.com/hot-weather-towing

That's a battery limitation. Batteries can dish more electrons than they can take.

-Crissa

 

[Haopec]

That's a battery limitation. Batteries can dish more electrons than they can take.

-Crissa

You are probably correct in general, but I don't have that limitation on the 100kwh Model X compared to the 135 kWh R1T (same hill, same boat ModeL X never limits regen. I think it's more of a thermal limitation issue on the inverter/motor. Pretty lame really to force the use of brakes and its a little shocking when the regen doesn't kick in when you expect it to and you jump over to the brakes.

 

[anionic1]

Yes, in fact I’ve taken videos of Fords with manufacturer Michigan planes pulling trailers with heavily camouflaged SUV at flagstaff in 2017. That’s just one example. To not test how this thing reacts to towing, fine tuning the trailer mode, stressing weak spots in frame, motor heat thermal loading, etc, is not good.

I wonder if since trailers are in all shapes and sizes they can model the forces on the CT once they dial in all these real world reactions that they are doing now.

 

[anionic1]

They are not going to release a vehicle to the public with towing specs that haven’t been tested.

 

[Crissa]

You are probably correct in general, but I don't have that limitation on the 100kwh Model X compared to the 135 kWh R1T (same hill, same boat ModeL X never limits regen. I think it's more of a thermal limitation issue on the inverter/motor. Pretty lame really to force the use of brakes and its a little shocking when the regen doesn't kick in when you expect it to and you jump over to the brakes.

Oh, it limits regen. You just don't notice because they can blend in friction braking instead.

It's more obvious on a 3/Y.

-Crissa

 

[Haopec]

Oh, it limits regen. You just don't notice because they can blend in friction braking instead.

It's more obvious on a 3/Y.

-Crissa

So you're saying while coasting down a hill with a 5k boat behind my MX, that it's feathering the brakes? Ehhh, I dunno about that. I could see feathering the brakes is possible if I set the cruise control at 60 and the regen couldn't keep up with slowing the vehicle on its own. That makes sense, but not costing down the hill. I'm still feathering the throttle because I have enough regen on the MX to slow the vehicle and the boat. The R1T just flat-out stops regening.. and forces me to use the brakes.

 

[TyPope]

Yes, in fact I’ve taken videos of Fords with manufacturer Michigan planes pulling trailers with heavily camouflaged SUV at flagstaff in 2017. That’s just one example. To not test how this thing reacts to towing, fine tuning the trailer mode, stressing weak spots in frame, motor heat thermal loading, etc, is not good.

Tesla has one huge advantage to Ford when it comes to testing and tweaking... Tesla can tweak on the fly. Even AFTER they start delivering, they can improve the towing experience, handling, tow modes, etc. Ford can't do that and thus MUST get all their testing done BEFORE release.

Dude: "Trailers longer than 20' sway and we can't tow them."

Tesla: "We'll get our engineers on it." Days later - Over the air fix.

Ford: "We didn't see that in our testing. I guess, you'll just have to suck it up, buttercup. We'll fix that next year... and, by the way, you won't get the fix. The fix is only for new orders of the next year model."

It'll suck having little problems at delivery but I'll take the over-the-air updates any day.

The big three may be better at delivering a complete product but you are stuck with it.

I know there's a fear that there could be some fatal flaw that can't be fixed but Tesla has shown that they will do right by their customers... (FSD aside, maybe...)

 

[scottf200]

Tesla has one huge advantage to Ford when it comes to testing and tweaking... Tesla can tweak on the fly. Even AFTER they start delivering, they can improve the towing experience, handling, tow modes, etc. Ford can't do that and thus MUST get all their testing done BEFORE release.

Dude: "Trailers longer than 20' sway and we can't tow them."

Tesla: "We'll get our engineers on it." Days later - Over the air fix.

Ford: "We didn't see that in our testing. I guess, you'll just have to suck it up, buttercup. We'll fix that next year... and, by the way, you won't get the fix. The fix is only for new orders of the next year model."

It'll suck having little problems at delivery but I'll take the over-the-air updates any day.

The big three may be better at delivering a complete product but you are stuck with it.

I know there's a fear that there could be some fatal flaw that can't be fixed but Tesla has shown that they will do right by their customers... (FSD aside, maybe...)

That no longer seems true for the Ford lightning and Mach-e. They have some OTA update/install issues but they are doing OTA. True it is unclear what % of components and how much they can reprogram but they definitely do this. This was a HUGE deal as they designed the Mach-E years ago.

The Ford 2025 T3/next_gen_F150 100% will have complete OTA. This is no longer a Tesla thing or not nearly as what it was a few years ago when the Tesla Model 3 failed CR braking (non-critical thing Tesla let out the door!) so bad and was fixed.

 

[scottf200]

Oh, it limits regen. You just don't notice because they can blend in friction braking instead. -Crissa

It was an interesting discussion with the Chevrolet towing engineer in Kyle's interview because they understood the safety aspect of trailer physical braking vs BEV truck regen braking. Ford, Chevrolet, others? have integrated physical trailer braking controls. Wonder if Cybertruck will(?).

 

[cvalue13]

Ford can't do that and thus MUST get all their testing done BEFORE release.

why do you think that?

tesla can only perform over-the-air software updates, not switch out mechanicals

Ford rolls out significant over-the-air software updates to the Lightning, too (and I can't imagine why the T3 wouldn't).

conversely, at least with respect to the F150 platform and towing, Ford probably has a *little bit* more data and experience around towing than does Tesla so far

 

[TyPope]

'Engineering Explained' by someone who hasn't Built or Implemented any EVs, is what's really 'Pointless'. Now if Jason Fenske had his own company building EVs with a proven track record of success, then I'd see more credibility. There are many people out there with engineering or technical degrees.

Graduating with an engineering degree is only a beginning set of knowledge with which to begin doing something real. It is not an end all of experience, expertise, or bragging rights to leverage. What one actually does with a degree over time is the real story that time will tell.

I think Jason Fenske should've waited until he could access a Cybertruck to do a demonstration of his own and substantiate his points, instead of being impatient to dismiss Tesla's demonstration.

His youtube channel might help him pay his student loans or other though, as I'm sure many people watch him.

- ÆCIII

Yes, because he explains the actual physics behind things like the tug-o-war and towing. He is NOT anti-EV or anti-ICE. He's quite level-headed and can explain all his findings with physics. Even with all my schooling, he can apply physics a lot better than I can. The stuff that he shows, can be verified by applying the same physics he uses (and, I've done that). That's why I trust his findings more than some other talking head or "internet expert".

Sponsored