Cybertruck water capabilities? River crossing?

[HaulingAss]

Seems like it is really, really hard to do...not. I mean if a "battery" company can do it right?

I think the main discussion here is that some people are annoyed that I am calling it "amphibious".

By definition, there is no limitation on how long it has to remain afloat to be called that, let alone that there is no definition of that it must float at all, to use that moniker.

So I use that term accordingly.

That then devolved into a conversation of how I'm "so silly" for suggesting that the CT will be amphibious, and that I'm endangering lives, should go back to cooking up other fantasies of exoskeletons on my barbie etc.

Note the connection between the "pro-exoskeleton-hypests" and the "anti-amphibian-jesters".

Groups of ill-informed people, repeating eachother ad nauseam, doesn't offer much room for a negative feedback loop, to bring in relevant information, to get a better approximation of the truth.

Now for one, I must commend BYD that they are in fact using the correct terminology at least.

They also highlight the fact that after "wading" to a certain depth, there will be enough displacement to actually "float" the U8. The point here is that even "if" you have a vehicle with a snorkel etc, it in no way guarantees that you will have enough traction to ford a river. For every inch of water depth you add you loose traction on the wheel from buoyancy, let alone from the water and slush you are driving through. That is the main reason water fording flooded, or fast moving rivers is a bad idea.

To overcome this problem of buoyancy, which is often the case with those that have done it before (vs those that have no clue) is that you simply open the vehicle doors to let the water in, to reduce the vehicle buoyancy, and be less likely to be carried away because you still have traction. It's important to note here, that on most vehicles, the CT included, the bulk of the buoyancy will come from the cabin air volume. So opening the doors makes it sink, and technically, if the electronic seals hold up, giving you under water driving ability, as demonstrated by the Model S video I posted previously.

In either case, the term amphibious holds true.

So then, Mr. Smarty Pants, why then is the Model S and the Model 3 not amphibious? They both float, as do a number of other cars that no one would consider amphibious.

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[charliemagpie]

Seems like it is really, really hard to do...not. I mean if a "battery" company can do it right?

I think the main discussion here is that some people are annoyed that I am calling it "amphibious".

By definition, there is no limitation on how long it has to remain afloat to be called that, let alone that there is no definition of that it must float at all, to use that moniker.

So I use that term accordingly.

That then devolved into a conversation of how I'm "so silly" for suggesting that the CT will be amphibious, and that I'm endangering lives, should go back to cooking up other fantasies of exoskeletons on my barbie etc.

Note the connection between the "pro-exoskeleton-hypests" and the "anti-amphibian-jesters".

Groups of ill-informed people, repeating eachother ad nauseam, doesn't offer much room for a negative feedback loop, to bring in relevant information, to get a better approximation of the truth.

Now for one, I must commend BYD that they are in fact using the correct terminology at least.

They also highlight the fact that after "wading" to a certain depth, there will be enough displacement to actually "float" the U8. The point here is that even "if" you have a vehicle with a snorkel etc, it in no way guarantees that you will have enough traction to ford a river. For every inch of water depth you add you loose traction on the wheel from buoyancy, let alone from the water and slush you are driving through. That is the main reason water fording flooded, or fast moving rivers is a bad idea.

To overcome this problem of buoyancy, which is often the case with those that have done it before (vs those that have no clue) is that you simply open the vehicle doors to let the water in, to reduce the vehicle buoyancy, and be less likely to be carried away because you still have traction. It's important to note here, that on most vehicles, the CT included, the bulk of the buoyancy will come from the cabin air volume. So opening the doors makes it sink, and technically, if the electronic seals hold up, giving you under water driving ability, as demonstrated by the Model S video I posted previously.

In either case, the term amphibious holds true.

Wow, so I can drive my CT in my scuba gear ?

Shark Hunter !!

 

[ricinro]

The unibody looked highly perforated at the firewall. Elon has fun on twitter and says many stupid things.
he told Leno that he desires his prototype to be close to production as much as possible but there are many differences so it is just the same bait and switch like other car companies. The SS panels bolt or clip onto the castings so it is not exoskeleton, no bulletproof glass or ramp tailgate. It is not a boat anymore than any other truck.
They didn’t even design a wiper into the prototype. So a clumsy afterthought (baw) was bolted on.
Tesla is the ultimate car company currently but they have the same aspirational vs reality: industrial design vs engineering and production constraints like most design teams. It is also likely that the SS will not be significantly work hardened because there will be welding and they need to improve their fit issue with stamping annealed SS from the mill.

 

[HaulingAss]

The unibody looked highly perforated at the firewall. Elon has fun on twitter and says many stupid things.
he told Leno that he desires his prototype to be close to production as much as possible but there are many differences so it is just the same bait and switch like other car companies. The SS panels bolt or clip onto the castings so it is not exoskeleton, no bulletproof glass or ramp tailgate. It is not a boat anymore than any other truck.
They didn’t even design a wiper into the prototype. So a clumsy afterthought (baw) was bolted on.
Tesla is the ultimate car company currently but they have the same aspirational vs reality: industrial design vs engineering and production constraints like most design teams. It is also likely that the SS will not be significantly work hardened because there will be welding and they need to improve their fit issue with stamping annealed SS from the mill.

Cold rolled steel is work-hardened, by definition. The entire design of the truck is to accommodate the difficulties of manufacturing with cold-rolled steel. Yes the steel will be work hardened.

What does leaving wipers off early prototypes have to do with anything? Duh!

Bait and switch? I don't think so.

No exoskeleton? Wrong!

Tesla is just like most other design teams? Wrong!

How did you get so much wrong? I bet you never guessed that the Model Y would become the best-selling car in the entire world! That's right, Tesla has a pure battery electric car that outsells the best selling combustion vehicle in the world. How is that possible with Tesla engineering/design teams being just as constrained as most other design and engineering teams?

Duh!

 

[JBee]

So then, Mr. Smarty Pants, why then is the Model S and the Model 3 not amphibious? They both float, as do a number of other cars that no one would consider amphibious.

I never said they weren't. So whats your point?

The MS video shows it driving in "submarine" mode, which is also amphibious, and part of my argument?

The differentiation here is simply that EM posted that the CT "could be briefly used as a boat" and further demonstrated "how far" he thinks it should travel as a boat. He has not to my knowledge said the same for the other models, except that they work in flooded areas, but with no specificity as to if that was wading, or floating, or sinking. All of which are "amphibious" traits by definition.

If he is saying those things, then at a bare minimum he has given it some thought, and anyone in the design team would know about what he said, and would have either corrected, or mentioned any difficulties in doing so to EM, so that he could either make that feature happen, or retract the statement.

Either way, there will be some engineering discussion going on inside of Tesla on how to deal with this feature.

From my perspective, I have long questioned why more all terrain vehicles are not amphibious, and now with the advent of electric drive, that are hermetically sealed in most models, and require little to no air to operate, why it should not be more commonplace. Some cooling might be necessary, but should be fine at low power levels.

Obviously, as EM also points out with some form of hub propulsion, being able to propel the CT over water is another item entirely. Depending on the tyre tread, as was shown in the BYD video above, it's actually possible to use the rotating wheels as "paddles" to propel through the water. This obviously is very sub-optimal in both design and efficiency, and depends heavily on the tyre profile used.



Together with some brake steering (tank style) it's also possible to steer the direction of travel for at least some level of control.

As mentioned previously, there is actually a fairly simple method to add water jets to each of the rear driveshafts, that weigh only a few pounds, and have no extra bearings, neither cause extra drag mechanically or in aero whilst driving on road. They also don't have to be activated, and simply operate as soon as they are submersed in water, and are steered by the RWS. They could also be steered as well by differential thrust using the brakes, or torque vectoring if it is the tri/quad motor.

Given the huge motor output of the plaid type motors used (340HP + each) together with lifting it's front wheels, and the very flat underbody, it's quite possible that it might even be able to reach plane. Which, honestly, would be quite insane, but maybe possible with some other geometry on the floor to give it stability. Maybe just a few hydroplanes will suffice, or go hydrofoil straight out? ?

But even with just a "slow mode" it would be quite capable of pushing a few meaningful knots to transverse a flat body of water. Add a 110V bilge pump for some extra shocks along the way, and it'll all be 'right mate.

 

[ricinro]

Cold rolled steel is work-hardened, by definition. The entire design of the truck is to accommodate the difficulties of manufacturing with cold-rolled steel. Yes the steel will be work hardened.

What does leaving wipers off early prototypes have to do with anything? Duh!

Bait and switch? I don't think so.

No exoskeleton? Wrong!

Tesla is just like most other design teams? Wrong!

How did you get so much wrong? I bet you never guessed that the Model Y would become the best-selling car in the entire world! That's right, Tesla has a pure battery electric car that outsells the best selling combustion vehicle in the world. How is that possible with Tesla engineering/design teams being just as constrained as most other design and engineering teams?

Duh!

Cold rolled steel is work-hardened, by definition. The entire design of the truck is to accommodate the difficulties of manufacturing with cold-rolled steel. Yes the steel will be work hardened.

What does leaving wipers off early prototypes have to do with anything? Duh!

Bait and switch? I don't think so.

No exoskeleton? Wrong!

Tesla is just like most other design teams? Wrong!

How did you get so much wrong? I bet you never guessed that the Model Y would become the best-selling car in the entire world! That's right, Tesla has a pure battery electric car that outsells the best selling combustion vehicle in the world. How is that possible with Tesla engineering/design teams being just as constrained as most other design and engineering teams?

Duh!

304L SS is available annealed on rolls from suppliers. It can be quarter to half hard with work hardening. Some 300 series SS like 301 can be full work hardened. The trim around the doors and the front fenders are attached using clips. You can see the rectangular holes for these clips on the unibody cab. Look at the crash test photo at the driver side fender: it was peeled back. The bed side panels mount to a few casting bosses with holes in them. These panels bolt to the rear casting. This is why Corey (Munro) stated that this design was not “exoskeleton”. The BAW or the pocket for wipers were not included in the original prototype. There could have been a possibility that they thought the wipers could reside under the hood but that wouldn’t work with the way the hood is currently hinged. Maybe this was driven by the f150 frunk design.
The machine that makes the machine is still under construction but developed enough to make the RC and MC iterations of the CT. Before that we saw hand built prototypes with the fit finish issues.
it seems unlikely they were using a 9000 ton gigapress in Fremont to develop the rapid prototype castings as there is no such gigapress in Fremont and the Austin gigapress was assembled earlier this year. My guess is that the original CT was a modified model x with a CT shell on it and they were rushed to do the CT introduction followed by very few prototypes the following two years.
Model Y (I have a 2021 LR MY) is a great car. My car has the rear casting but I think earlier MYs were unibodies and a mostly conventional auto design.

 

[PilotPete]

I've read here, a number of times, the glass won't be bulletproof. I agree. What I don't understand is, why did anyone ever think it would be? Elon (to the best of my knowledge) never said it would. He said at the unveil the 3mm 30X steel would stop a 9mm fired at 15 feet. And as was pointed out to me, youtube has a number of creators that have proven that exact thing with "lesser" quality steel. I think most use 304. On the semi, they just showed a trailer hitch and ball on a rope swinging into the windshield if I remember.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that this is like some of the other stuff that has been attributed to him as saying or promising that he never did. If there is a post or video where he says that, please post it. I haven't seen it.

 

[FutureBoy]

I've read here, a number of times, the glass won't be bulletproof. I agree. What I don't understand is, why did anyone ever think it would be? Elon (to the best of my knowledge) never said it would. He said at the unveil the 3mm 30X steel would stop a 9mm fired at 15 feet. And as was pointed out to me, youtube has a number of creators that have proven that exact thing with "lesser" quality steel. I think most use 304. On the semi, they just showed a trailer hitch and ball on a rope swinging into the windshield if I remember.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that this is like some of the other stuff that has been attributed to him as saying or promising that he never did. If there is a post or video where he says that, please post it. I haven't seen it.

 

[CYBRSMTH]

Been suspiciously silent on the whole water floating capability for a while... I wouldn't bank on it any. more than the tailgate ramp, top light bar, or side sail storage... Or Cyberquad for that matter. No word on that lately either.

In an effort to get the truck out “on time” I think they’ve been cutting potential features. Elon and co. are probably saying to themselves, how do we get costs down; is X something that every customer wants, needs, and is willing to pay for; can we provide this feature as an accessory instead? I think the water capabilities and the side sail storage are nixed and the tailgate ramp and top light bar will become accessories.

 

[PilotPete]

Ok, but I don't hear the glass specifically stated as bulletproof. I'll give you that he makes the general comment, and taken out of context, sounds like everything is bulletproof. But when talking about the vehicle features, he says body panels, I haven't heard him say "the glass is bulletproof." I know I'm splitting hairs here, but just like the Q3 comment, I think we may be attributing a feature that he has never specifically stated. The assumption doesn't make sense. Level IIA glass is wayyyy thicker than anything the CT or any Tesla has ever shown. And if you assume his comment to Rogan implies the whole vehicle, then what about the tires? No way those will take a 9mm and survive, even at 50 yards, much less 15 feet.

Later today I'll watch the whole 2 hour interview and if he mentions the glass as bulletproof, I'll post that.

 

[JBee]

Ok, but I don't hear the glass specifically stated as bulletproof. I'll give you that he makes the general comment, and taken out of context, sounds like everything is bulletproof. But when talking about the vehicle features, he says body panels, I haven't heard him say "the glass is bulletproof." I know I'm splitting hairs here, but just like the Q3 comment, I think we may be attributing a feature that he has never specifically stated. The assumption doesn't make sense. Level IIA glass is wayyyy thicker than anything the CT or any Tesla has ever shown. And if you assume his comment to Rogan implies the whole vehicle, then what about the tires? No way those will take a 9mm and survive, even at 50 yards, much less 15 feet.

Later today I'll watch the whole 2 hour interview and if he mentions the glass as bulletproof, I'll post that.

Well tyres could be self healing, have runflats (foam filled) or bead lockers (small internal tube that allows for driving with deflated tyre off-road). Obviously would depend on the bullet used, but otherwise it is possible. More likely than bullet proof glass though.

Another way to make the CT windows bullet proof would be to have some stainless shutters. For the door windows you could have a secondary panel that slides up the outside of the window. For the rear you could have a reverse vault cover, that goes over the rear roof window, and possibly even over the top down to the front windscreen. The angle of the windscreen actually helps here in that being so shallow means that a bullet travelling horizontally either deflects and ricochets off, or gets in-bedded into it, which in turn is better, because relative to the angle of impact, the sloped windscreen is thicker. This also why tanks etc have slanted bodies.

Having it bulletproof for 9mm gives you are better likelihood of survival, but is fairly ineffective in comparison to any decent rifle round. What I think is more relevant, at least in our neck of the woods, is that the glass is more resilient against impacts, like tree branches, rocks and chips or animals etc, especially given that it is for off-road use as well. Even for smash and grab protection, or kidnapping, unarmed roadside robberies etc.

I hear South Africa, EM's home country is fraught with security problems like that, to the point that the car security industry is booming. Somewhat ironically, with actual flame throwers and whatnot. Apparently, as my SA buddy tells me, they think the local police station is the local gang gun store. They just leave and let them to it. Wild stuff. Hopefully we never see that here.

 

[CyberGus]

I've read here, a number of times, the glass won't be bulletproof. I agree. What I don't understand is, why did anyone ever think it would be? Elon (to the best of my knowledge) never said it would. He said at the unveil the 3mm 30X steel would stop a 9mm fired at 15 feet. And as was pointed out to me, youtube has a number of creators that have proven that exact thing with "lesser" quality steel. I think most use 304. On the semi, they just showed a trailer hitch and ball on a rope swinging into the windshield if I remember.

I could be wrong, but I get the feeling that this is like some of the other stuff that has been attributed to him as saying or promising that he never did. If there is a post or video where he says that, please post it. I haven't seen it.

Darth Vader doesn't say “Luke, I am your father”, and Captain Kirk never said "Beam me up Scotty".

Mandela Effect

 

[Crissa]

You can see the rectangular holes for these clips on the unibody cab. Look at the crash test photo at the driver side fender: it was peeled back. The bed side panels mount to a few casting bosses with holes in them. These panels bolt to the rear casting. This is why Corey (Munro) stated that this design was not “exoskeleton”.

And he was wrong.

What structural element is precluded by the crumple zone... crumpling?

This is nonsensical. Like saying a crab doesn't have an exoskeleton because its claws can break or tear off.

-Crissa

 

[ricinro]

And he was wrong.

What structural element is precluded by the crumple zone... crumpling?

This is nonsensical. Like saying a crab doesn't have an exoskeleton because its claws can break or tear off.

-Crissa

The SS panels contributes somewhat to the structure but if the panels were removed the CT would still be structurally valid. The loads are mostly supported by the castings and unibody.
The good news is that SS panel replacement seems easy as they are snapped on or bolted on.

 

[ricinro]

Wading and floating mode
Like every good off-roader, U8 can wade. The Premium Edition can wade in a maximum depth of 1000 mm, while the Off-road Master Edition can wade up to 1,400mm thanks to the snorkel.

When the wading mode is activated, the vehicle will use its sensors to monitor the environment, water depth, wheel slip status, etc. The emergency floating mode is automatically activated when the car gets into depth over the limit.

When activated, the combustion engine will immediately shut down, Disus-P will raise the suspension to the maximum level, windows will be closed automatically, A/C will be switched to internal circulation, and the sunroof will open, providing an emergency exit. Moreover, the vehicle will display the water depth and attitude on the central control screen.

U8 can stay afloat for 30 minutes and move forward at 3 km/h by accelerating and turning wheels. It can even perform tank turns while floating. BYD highlights that it is only for emergencies such as floods and not for fun crossing lakes and rivers. Interestingly, their marketing materials showcase U8 floating on the water exactly in those situations. After the emergency floating mode activation, the car needs to be brought to a service center for inspection. BYD claims U8 is IP68 level waterproof.


https://carnewschina.com/2023/09/20/byds-yangwang-u8-launched-can-float-on-water-for-30-minutes-and-sail-3km-h/#:~:text=On September 20, the YangWang,float on water in emergencies.

Because it (U8) was designed to float. It is highly doubtful that Tesla had floatation as a design requirement.

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