Foundation Series Remorse

[Ward L]

Neither will ICE cars/trucks get EPA numbers. Too many factors that contribute to reduced range that aren’t faced in EPA range testing. Also consider that when Tesla states 320 miles of range it’s with all season tires not all terrain tires. People are choosing to pass on the FS due to the range and want the 500 miles Elon promised. If the current truck can’t give you 320 miles, what makes you believe you were ever going to get 500 miles? Because he said so? He also said the AWD would get 318 miles with all terrain tires. Comparing it to MY or M3 range is irrelevant because it weighs twice as much AND has all terrain tires, and is a truck. Personally I’m tired of paying $4.50 - $5.00 a gallon for gas in California and welcome being able to charge at home 98%!of the time where the curve doesn’t matter. If you’re primarily driving long distances, then maybe a truck generally isn’t the right choice.

I agree with you. I will do 95% of my charging at home. I did have plans to take my CT on overnight road trips that I don't normally do. It is just going to take more energy to get this tank down the road and it will take longer to charge because the battery is so big. My F-150 gets about 17 MPG on the freeway. I've estimated my CT will get the cost equivalent of about 40 miles per gallon. More than double the mileage or half the cost. The problem is I'll have to drive the FSCT 588,000 miles to recover the $100k cost assuming $5/gallon (California prices). But I will have the coolest truck in the land! I was expecting the CD to be so low the CT would cut through the air like a Corvette. Didn't it have to be ugly to be super aerodynamic (Ha Ha Ha)?

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[Crissa]

You are not alone. I am canceling my Foundation Series reservation and demanding a refund.

This was not the truck that was advertised, or that we were promised.

Do you even understand what was advertised? Like...

I expect the product I pay for.

Tesla lied about the range. They flat-out lied.

No. They used the EPA calculations. That's not lying.

I read this whole rant in the voice of a hysterical, nagging wife.

I can see that, but I read the rant in the voice of absolute ignorant man-splaining.

Everyone knows Tesla lies about range. They advertise 330 and you get 260

Everyone knows lots of things which aren't true. Stop being so heavy on the pedal, flow with the other traffic, count range as an average mix of daily or rural non-freeway driving and you'll hit the EPA numbers... because those are the EPA assumptions.

Real world driving , 207 miles where
You would drive city and highway

Yes, I would drive a mix of roads.

Rarely am I driving only on the freeway ...unless I'm driving to my mom's. Like, why would I base my range on something that happens 1-4 times a year?

The problem is I'll have to drive the FSCT 588,000 miles to recover the $100k cost assuming $5/gallon (California prices).

Uhh... I don't think that's how that works.

5 dollars divided by miles is 0.29 dollars per mile.

So even if you're getting leadfoot two miles per kilowatt, the average price for electricity is 30¢ a kilowatt here. So that's 0.15 dollars per mile. That would be 666,667 miles to recover...

But that's not the only costs. An ICE truck is going to need fluid changes, maintenance, in even 100k mile. I estimate I spend (an average) of a thousand dollars in maintenance annually on my Mazda per 10k miles. That's (Stupid Santa Cruz prices and me driving in the mountains and wearing out my brakes.) And you're going to have to replace something serious in that existing truck within a timeframe of a number of miles. I ignore tires and wiper fluid, 'cause you're going to use that either way. If you use more, means you're having more fun, right?

So while in the short term, ICE is cheaper; in the long term, you're pouring oil and gas into it while the EV is just sipping. That's 39¢ a mile vs 15¢ a mile.

It'll never pay off unless you'e starting new for both, but it will pay off. Faster if you do more miles. And you gotta replace the ICE eventually. Why not now?

-Crissa

 

[greggertruck]

I expect the product I pay for.

Tesla lied about the range. They flat-out lied.

They've been testing, so they had to know the range was only in the mid-200's.

This past week, Tesla lowered the range estimates for a number of their vehicles because they were about to be sued.

Look, it's a free country, and it's largely a free world. If you want to be a meek apologist full of excuses for the Tesla brand, bless your little heart. You do you.

But some of us expect companies to deliver what they represented, or we'll buy something else.

So you drive 70mph non stop in your MS?

That's what that range test was. Zero regen at all. 47 degrees. 70mph.

I'd imagine the actual mixed range would be 280-290 - which we were told 300+. But, regardless.... You claim to have an FS order in. Nothing has changed since the beginning of customer deliveries.

You own a Model S. You know how EV range works at some level.

 

[Ward L]

Do you even understand what was advertised? Like...


No. They used the EPA calculations. That's not lying.


I can see that, but I read the rant in the voice of absolute ignorant man-splaining.


Everyone knows lots of things which aren't true. Stop being so heavy on the pedal, flow with the other traffic, count range as an average mix of daily or rural non-freeway driving and you'll hit the EPA numbers... because those are the EPA assumptions.


Yes, I would drive a mix of roads.

Rarely am I driving only on the freeway ...unless I'm driving to my mom's. Like, why would I base my range on something that happens 1-4 times a year?


Uhh... I don't think that's how that works.

5 dollars divided by miles is 0.29 dollars per mile.

So even if you're getting leadfoot two miles per kilowatt, the average price for electricity is 30¢ a kilowatt here. So that's 0.15 dollars per mile. That would be 666,667 miles to recover...

But that's not the only costs. An ICE truck is going to need fluid changes, maintenance, in even 100k mile. I estimate I spend (an average) of a thousand dollars in maintenance annually on my Mazda per 10k miles. That's (Stupid Santa Cruz prices and me driving in the mountains and wearing out my brakes.) And you're going to have to replace something serious in that existing truck within a timeframe of a number of miles. I ignore tires and wiper fluid, 'cause you're going to use that either way. If you use more, means you're having more fun, right?

So while in the short term, ICE is cheaper; in the long term, you're pouring oil and gas into it while the EV is just sipping. That's 39¢ a mile vs 15¢ a mile.

It'll never pay off unless you'e starting new for both, but it will pay off. Faster if you do more miles. And you gotta replace the ICE eventually. Why not now?

-Crissa

I knew someone would question my calculations, and tried to spell out the basis. Whether it is 588k miles or 667k miles, it doesn’t really matter. It is will be a long time to pay off the CT, which of course is a ridiculous question. We don’t buy new cars for a better ROR. The sad part here is I would probably make less overall CO2 in the remaining years of my life if I just kept driving my F-150.

We are pissed because we can’t have it all, an ugly, lovable, super efficient truck, with a government supplement, for $60k. This is not about getting your $1k back. I am sure u could get it back, it might not be easy. Don’t risk $1k refund against $100k truck u don’t like. MTC!

 

[Celiboy]

The difference is ICE cars have CITY / HIGHWAY ratings and its not hard to duplicate them with most vehicles and some models surpass it

I agree its not if you wanna drive at 50 miles an hour on the highway. The EPA doesn’t use highway speeds to determine their rating so if you drive at highway speeds you’re not getting that cars rated mileage.

 

[JonS]

Is anyone else having serious concerns/remorse on the foundation series range? I completed my down payment Christmas eve, and since have been seeing range tests maxing out around 250 miles on the freeway.

I currently have a 2022 Model S long range (405 mile range) and have done the trip Milwaukee to New Orleans. All went well and I felt 400 miles was enough to comfortably stop and recharge every 3-4 hours.

I was planning to use the CyberTruck to travel to Florida frequently. Having to stop every 2 hours kind of changes the dynamic of the trip.

Do you think we have anyway of getting out the 1k down payment considering the range seems to not be what was advertised?

If you are looking to maximize the range you’ll likely need to get some street tires rather than the knobbly ATs. We’re currently only seeing range tests with low efficiency tires.

 

[CybertruckRN1127]

It's just $250. Cut your loses and move on if you're not happy. You'll be in a deeper hole once they are mass produced, have longer range, and MSRP drops. Just look at past Tesla trends. Their cars and prices get better as they mature.

 

[cvalue13]

I agree its not if you wanna drive at 50 miles an hour on the highway. The EPA doesn’t use highway speeds to determine their rating so if you drive at highway speeds you’re not getting that cars rated mileage.

they do use highway speeds

they use what is statistically the common average speed for a normal highway drive

“highway” milage does not mean “70mph for eternity,” because with one exception** rarely are highway miles driven that way.

Merging onto a freeway, dealing with minor and more material traffic slow-downs, etc., mean that when you go for a highway drive, from the time you get on the highway to get off the highway, you are not “doing 70” on average even that’s What you set your cruise control to.

**”sustained interstate long-distance driving with little to no traffic” - is not the name or purpose of the test


for the same reasons, here’s the city test drive schedule:

 

[dapiya]

Can anyone show me anything that shows Tesla connecting their advertised range to the EPA methodology? Any link they provide to show what their figure means? Who really cares about a 300mile range driving 55% in the city and 45% at 48mph or whatever it is? In what scenario would you care about your range driving like that?

Why in the world isn’t range advertised when you actually need to know your range? Oh I don’t know, maybe a 300 mile drive on a freeway. Maybe an average highway speed limit at standard temp and pressure. Inferring everyone (especially those buying their first bev) should know how much range a car really gets because you can find the methodology somewhere on the internet is ridiculous. It doesn’t pass the reasonable person test. We’re all buying a 6 figure truck and we have zero information from Tesla on how far we can make it on a road trip. You know they have the data to show you your configuration and range with a few small xy charts at 40,60,80mph and temps.

 

[Outdoors]

They gave everyone an EPA estimate. Why can't everyone understand that.

Enough already. You all act like your buying your first car and crying about it.

Y'all have money and are being cranky.

 

[DumpsterFire]

Can anyone show me anything that shows Tesla connecting their advertised range to the EPA methodology? Any link they provide to show what their figure means? Who really cares about a 300mile range driving 55% in the city and 45% at 48mph or whatever it is? In what scenario would you care about your range driving like that?

Why in the world isn’t range advertised when you actually need to know your range? Oh I don’t know, maybe a 300 mile drive on a freeway. Maybe an average highway speed limit at standard temp and pressure. Inferring everyone (especially those buying their first bev) should know how much range a car really gets because you can find the methodology somewhere on the internet is ridiculous. It doesn’t pass the reasonable person test. We’re all buying a 6 figure truck and we have zero information from Tesla on how far we can make it on a road trip. You know they have the data to show you your configuration and range with a few small xy charts at 40,60,80mph and temps.

You probably shouldn’t buy it.

 

[Celiboy]

they do use highway speeds

they use what is statistically the common average speed for a normal highway drive

“highway” milage does not mean “70mph for eternity,” because with one exception** rarely are highway miles driven that way.

Merging onto a freeway, dealing with minor and more material traffic slow-downs, etc., mean that when you go for a highway drive, from the time you get on the highway to get off the highway, you are not “doing 70” on average even that’s What you set your cruise control to.

**”sustained interstate long-distance driving with little to no traffic” - is not the name or purpose of the test


for the same reasons, here’s the city test drive schedule:

Thank you for the correction. Some folks are using the EPA rated range as though they should be able to go that far or get that gas mileage from the moment they drive off the lot, every trip, without considering any other factors that impact and decrease rated range or mileage.

 

[Crissa]

Why in the world isn’t range advertised when you actually need to know your range?

Because the calculation was designed by the EPA based upon how people use their vehicles on average, not an interstate highway at freeway speed - because every freeway has a different speed, from 45 to 85. It's meant to simulate a single efficiency number in a combination of settings.

I agree, having a freeway range would be helpful - and refueling/recharging calculation. But alas, we don't have one.

EVs can have wildly different ranges. At an average of thirty here in the city and mountains, my Zero can go almost 90 miles. But at freeway speed I can go about 30.

-Crissa

 

[cvalue13]

Thank you for the correction. Some folks are using the EPA rated range as though they should be able to go that far or get that gas mileage from the moment they drive off the lot, every trip, without considering any other factors that impact and decrease rated range or mileage.

which wouldn’t be such a bizarre take, if ICE vehicles weren’t identical in this respect

only difference is now ICE tanks so big, fuel stations so ubiquitous, and gas so cheap, that people just don’t pay attention

At least that is, people wealthy enough to buy new cars

 

[Celiboy]

Can anyone show me anything that shows Tesla connecting their advertised range to the EPA methodology? Any link they provide to show what their figure means? Who really cares about a 300mile range driving 55% in the city and 45% at 48mph or whatever it is? In what scenario would you care about your range driving like that?

Why in the world isn’t range advertised when you actually need to know your range? Oh I don’t know, maybe a 300 mile drive on a freeway. Maybe an average highway speed limit at standard temp and pressure. Inferring everyone (especially those buying their first bev) should know how much range a car really gets because you can find the methodology somewhere on the internet is ridiculous. It doesn’t pass the reasonable person test. We’re all buying a 6 figure truck and we have zero information from Tesla on how far we can make it on a road trip. You know they have the data to show you your configuration and range with a few small xy charts at 40,60,80mph and temps.

Why just Tesla? Show me where any other manufacturer has provided that information to you before you bought your first ICE vehicle to help you understand how far you could go on a tank of gas. God forbid you just look at the gauge and stop at the gas station.

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