Cybertruck hits 500kW charging speed with just unveiled V4 Cabinet!

[scottf200]

Thanks for your various insights and rational for your perspective. Very interesting.

Not sure what A/B have to do with the V3.5 discussion, but entertaining it:

Re: above .... you mentioned he hates on Tesla on X/Twitter and I was responding with a labeled:
" ASIDE " on the two things I've seen him complain about on Tesla.

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[henchman24]

Thanks for your various insights and rational for your perspective. Very interesting.



Re: above .... you mentioned he hates on Tesla on X/Twitter and I was responding with a labeled:
" ASIDE " on the two things I've seen him complain about on Tesla.

Fair. I've just seen Branden give very little benefit of doubt on Tesla, especially since Elon has been outspoken politically. At times he seems actively out to point out even the most minor issues. Early on in the NACS standard, he said some wildly inaccurate things. Lately he's been on an uptime complaint kick calling Tesla's method made up and calling it out at every opportunity. There are plenty of other instances if you just go back.

 

[Jack27]

..

 

[henchman24]

This video shows an interesting look into form factor and chemistry differences. When Rivian switched to the 53G cell (higher nickel and less cobalt than the previous 50G). This gave them a capacity increase at the expense of thermals. Rivian did not change up their cooling strategy with a plate between cells stacked on top of each other. They basically inserted the 53G cell in place of the 50G in the previous pack... giving them a ~6% increase in capacity. What this has resulted in is a vehicle that has the same thermal issues from a design standpoint as the 50G (Gen 1), but with even less headway with the reduction in cobalt in the cells. The net result is a significantly worse charging vehicle with some nice marketing materials and a cheaper COGS.

I completely understand that it is very difficult to really convey the nuance between strategies, but the whole picture matters. Form factors, battery chemistry, cooling strategies, etc. To the end consumer, this doesn't really matter as they just want the best performance and won't think of sourcing, production, COGS, etc... but for scalability this stuff matters a ton.

One note here, Kyle mentions that 800v is a miss here and really for the issues that this truck is experiencing, that doesn't help it. 800v architecture helps chargers, cables, inlet ports, and cabling to the batteries... but it doesn't have a single impact on cell level issues. In this case, the issues are at a cell level and a fundamental flaw of plate cooling on cylindrical cells with low cobalt chemistry. 800v charging wouldn't change a thing here. Either Rivian needs to compromise capacity and cost to increase the cobalt in the pack, or they need to re-design the cooling strategy for the pack (which likely will also reduce capacity as there would be less room for cells in the space they have for the pack).

 

[HaulingAss]

Either Rivian needs to compromise capacity and cost to increase the cobalt in the pack, or they need to re-design the cooling strategy for the pack (which likely will also reduce capacity as there would be less room for cells in the space they have for the pack).

I think if Rivian went with ribbon cooling for their pack, the reduced thermal gradients might allow them to charge the cells a little more on the top, and discharge a little more on the bottom, without running into longevity issues. If so, that might mitigate some of the loss of energy storage. At the very least, the faster DCFCing would offset the downside of a smaller pack. Ribbon cooling is better from everything but a manufacturing cost/simplicity perspective. But Rivian can't afford to increase production/development costs simply to get a bit faster DCFCing, most people charge at home over 90% of the time. Yes, their thermal management system is non-optimal, and that probably explains their low efficiency compared to the much bigger Cybertruck.

Big batteries increase vehicle weight, reduce handling/performance and off-raod capabilities while costing more. It seems to me that EVs can still easily displace gas cars as long as long distance motorists adopt the EV travelling experience, which is to take a quick 15 minute break every 2-3 hours. I mention this to point out that if Rivian did have to decrease the kWh of their largest packs to adopt ribbon cooling, it would be a good thing. Probably the extra cost of ribbon cooling would be offset by the smaller capacity battery. And the faster charging speeds and lighter vehicle would negate the need to have such a large pack in the first place.

People who think a big battery is the Holy Grail need to realize that better DCFC infrastructure fixes that. When I was a kid in the 1970's, we had Sizzlers (tm). They were the same size as Hot Wheels, but had tiny electric motors and I think a miniature nicad battery. It had to fit in a Hot Wheels form factor. They could charge in a minute and a half and zip around on whatever tracks you built for around three minutes.

They were fast and fun! Charge and go! I have no idea why kids don't have these today. Maybe the oil companies thought they gave people the wrong (right) idea!

 

[henchman24]

I think if Rivian went with ribbon cooling for their pack, the reduced thermal gradients might allow them to charge the cells a little more on the top, and discharge a little more on the bottom, without running into longevity issues. If so, that might mitigate some of the loss of energy storage. At the very least, the faster DCFCing would offset the downside of a smaller pack. Ribbon cooling is better from everything but a manufacturing cost/simplicity perspective. But Rivian can't afford to increase production/development costs simply to get a bit faster DCFCing, most people charge at home over 90% of the time. Yes, their thermal management system is non-optimal, and that probably explains their low efficiency compared to the much bigger Cybertruck.

Big batteries increase vehicle weight, reduce handling/performance and off-raod capabilities while costing more. It seems to me that EVs can still easily displace gas cars as long as long distance motorists adopt the EV travelling experience, which is to take a quick 15 minute break every 2-3 hours. I mention this to point out that if Rivian did have to decrease the kWh of their largest packs to adopt ribbon cooling, it would be a good thing. Probably the extra cost of ribbon cooling would be offset by the smaller capacity battery. And the faster charging speeds and lighter vehicle would negate the need to have such a large pack in the first place.

People who think a big battery is the Holy Grail need to realize that better DCFC infrastructure fixes that. When I was a kid in the 1970's, we had Sizzlers (tm). They were the same size as Hot Wheels, but had tiny electric motors and I think a miniature nicad battery. It had to fit in a Hot Wheels form factor. They could charge in a minute and a half and zip around on whatever tracks you built for around three minutes.

They were fast and fun! Charge and go! I have no idea why kids don't have these today. Maybe the oil companies thought they gave people the wrong (right) idea!

I wouldn't say you're wrong, but more that Rivian simply can't afford to do a ground up redesign of the pack. Just like when Elon was asked repeatedly about the Model 3 getting castings, yeah they could have done it... but financial and production reasons stop it from happening. Redesigning the pack that this point would be inherently very costly at a time when they are bleeding money. They need the R1 series vehicles to simply bring in as much cash as they can until they can get the R2 into production. We don't have a whole lot of details on their R2 battery, but they better not go the route of plate cooling again as we know the larger format cells still need adequate cooling that a plate just can't deliver.

 

[Stuck4ger]

It sounds like you might be smarter than Tesla's smartest engineer. Because you have a better grasp of what various batteries can handle than they do. Or, at least you claim to.

Or the implication we often see here that Tesla doesn’t do something because they are not smart enough and/or lazy. (And you know how Elon is so accepting of such a workforce ?)

 

[carsly]

Just remembering to the days when Tesla noted Cybertruck would be capable of 1 MW charging. We're about halfway there!

In all seriousness, I don't care about peak charging speeds since they only take effect for a very short duration and only under certain pack and environmental conditions. Same as top speeds on vehicles, it's bragging rights only.

I'd like to see Cybertruck hold 180-200Kw to 70-80%. That would really cut charging times.

 

[henchman24]

Just remembering to the days when Tesla noted Cybertruck would be capable of 1 MW charging. We're about halfway there!

In all seriousness, I don't care about peak charging speeds since they only take effect for a very short duration and only under certain pack and environmental conditions. Same as top speeds on vehicles, it's bragging rights only.

I'd like to see Cybertruck hold 180-200Kw to 70-80%. That would really cut charging times.

This is very, very unlikely to happen with cylindrical cells and trying to cut out cobalt. It would be an enormous breakthrough for that to happen. The form factor of the cells and pack design are not based around that level of power at the SoC. Vehicles that can do that have a certain design for a reason (pouch cells and significantly more cobalt).

That said... all of the stuff matters. Don't outright discount the peak though. If 500kw charging can be held for even 1 minute (and it probably won't), it is basically the same as 180kw 2.75 minutes. If they can cut ~3 minutes off the 5-35%, it makes a bigger difference than holding ~20-30kw more above 50%.

 

[carsly]

This is very, very unlikely to happen with cylindrical cells and trying to cut out cobalt. It would be an enormous breakthrough for that to happen. The form factor of the cells and pack design are not based around that level of power at the SoC. Vehicles that can do that have a certain design for a reason (pouch cells and significantly more cobalt).

That said... all of the stuff matters. Don't outright discount the peak though. If 500kw charging can be held for even 1 minute (and it probably won't), it is basically the same as 180kw 2.75 minutes. If they can cut ~3 minutes off the 5-35%, it makes a bigger difference than holding ~20-30kw more above 50%.

Appreciate the perspective and I agree. A 15 minute 20-80% (or 15-75%) is fast enough where it doesn't matter and is really no different than ICE. However a 25 minute 20-80% can feel a little long.

On a long trip, an extra 10 minutes saved per charging stop is....

....a shorter Kyle Conner video!

 

[Woodrick]

“Miles per hour” has to be the most useless charging metric ever. If a CT averages 2.1 mi/kwh then 700 mph peak would be like 333 kw charge rate which we know is impossible on a V3

It's actually the most informative metric!

"I added 28 kWH"
"I'm now at 78% charge"

What do those mean? If you aren't familiar with how big the "tank" is, then you have no idea. Even if you are familiar, you have to go through some calculations to figure out what you really want.


What you really want to know is how fast I am charging and that gives you a quick calculation on how long you will have to continue.
And even more importantly, it evens up the field between vehicles. It makes it pretty obvious that I'll have to stay longer in my Cybertruck than my Model 3 to charge, it's only charging half as fast. (While the kW rate is the same)

 

[carsly]

What you really want to know is how fast I am charging and that gives you a quick calculation on how long you will have to continue.
And even more importantly, it evens up the field between vehicles. It makes it pretty obvious that I'll have to stay longer in my Cybertruck than my Model 3 to charge, it's only charging half as fast. (While the kW rate is the same)

How many miles per minute do you get with an ICE vehicle? Anyone know?

 

[mongo]

Just remembering to the days when Tesla noted Cybertruck would be capable of 1 MW charging. We're about halfway there!

Are you referring to the Semi delivery event where they said new Superchargers would get the emersion liquid cooled charge cable architecture for use with Cybertruck? They weren't saying it would get 1MW charging.
Around minute 27:

 

[mongo]

How many miles per minute do you get with an ICE vehicle? Anyone know?

All in under 15?

 

[Woodrick]

How many miles per minute do you get with an ICE vehicle? Anyone know?

Like EVs, it depends on the tank size and the pump capacity.

Haven't you been at a pump that pumps very slow and it seems like forever to fill?
i worked for a trailer company and the owner had a combination of tanks that held 150 gallons and took forever to fill.

Do you know how many GPM your station's pump ran at?
And yes, most cars had an instrument that told you what percentage that the tank at (0, 1/4, /2, 3/4, full)
But the time to fill a tank isn't generally considered by ICE drivers, everyone seems to think that it only takes a minute or two (in reality, often a LOT longer).

So what should the "fill rate" measurement be? Do you think most drivers known how many miles are in a kWh? Or even how many kWh their vehicles hold?

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