firsttruck

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FT, Please look at the entire discussion. I said the part I objected to was that in aviation, designers and engineers don’t use that term.
.....
You said
I’m with ya now. But I will stand behind the statement that no one in aviation engineering uses the term Exoskeleton, even if, like the SeaBee, they use a thick skin in place of ribs.
....

Sandy Munro and Munro & Assoc have worked on designs of many things including motor vehicles, missiles, aircraft (general aviation, military fighters, and airliners).

Sandy Munro and Munro & Assoc are aviation, designers and engineers.

They used the term "exoskeleton" in regard to some aircraft designs.
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charliemagpie

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A soft drink can is a true exoskeleton?
 

Ogre

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You said



Sandy Munro and Munro & Assoc have worked on designs of many things including motor vehicles, missiles, aircraft (general aviation, military fighters, and airliners).

Sandy Munro and Munro & Assoc are aviation, designers and engineers.

They used the term "exoskeleton" in regard to some aircraft designs.
I don’t think anyone is on record using the term exoskeleton design or exoskeleton frame prior to the Cybertruck. I haven’t researched this, but I doubt it.

I’m pretty sure Munro adopted the term after Musk used it to describe the Cybertruck.
 

HaulingAss

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Wow - and I thought I sometimes wrote some excessively long posts - not feeling quite as guilty of that anymore for some reason. 🤣

BTW - stuck an extra rendering on my last post in the "...accessories, shovels, first look" thread - here.

- ÆCIII
Well, if you don't have much to say, you won't say much. But don't feel bad about writing a long post if you have more to say, people can easily see it's a long post and skip it if all they want to read are quips and short, superficial ideas or opinions. Why would you feel bad about providing more color?

A picture is worth a thousand words, but some ideas are not best conveyed with a picture, but words. There's nothing wrong with sharing more than superficial ideas.
 

Cybershot

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„JESZCZE ICH NIE BUDUJĄ”

Są to ukończone kompilacje BIW. Wszystkie odlewy i tłoczenia.
[/CYTAT][/CYTAT]
Ktoś o imieniu Anonymous opublikował to zdjęcie na portalu społecznościowym. Udało mi się też go złapać, zanim zniknął. Musiał go wyciągnąć, ponieważ poszedłem skomentować i pokazało się strona „to już nie jest dostępne”. Proszę zdjąć, jeśli nie wolno.

Tesla Cybertruck ramki castings.jpg

[/CYTAT]
A skąd miał zdjęcia
 


HaulingAss

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A soft drink can is a true exoskeleton?
Given how thin soft drink cans are, and how easily they are collapsed when empty, I would say they have more of a hydrostatic skeleton, like a slug, because they depend upon fluid pressure for their strength. I suppose you could classify an empty can as an exoskeleton and a full one as a hydrostatic skeleton.

People should understand that the term "exoskeleton" is biological in nature. If the conceptual designer of the Cybertruck wants to describe it as an exoskeleton, then it's pretty arrogant to tell him he's wrong, especially considering that it has all the traits of an exoskeleton. Cory (from Munro live) is not a biologist and has no more standing to say it's not an exoskeleton than Musk has to say it is.

Those who say it's not are under the mistaken impression that an exoskeleton cannot be comprised of a composite structure (for example an exoskeleton frame of aluminum and steel that is sheathed in 3mm stainless for additional strength).

Since Cory's initial comments, I believe you will find that he has walked them back a bit, after recognizing he didn't fully understand that "exoskeleton" does not have such a strict definition.

IMO, the entire structure, including the entire structural battery, the aluminum castings, and the stainless sheathing, is well-suited to being described as an exoskeleton but it's just terminology so I don't know why some people are so adamant that it's not. I think most people who argue this just like the feeling of superiority over Musk that it gives them. Never mind that it just makes them look foolish to argue semantics on something so trivial. The engineering is what it is.
 

ÆCIII

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Well, if you don't have much to say, you won't say much. But don't feel bad about writing a long post if you have more to say, people can easily see it's a long post and skip it if all they want to read are quips and short, superficial ideas or opinions. Why would you feel bad about providing more color?

A picture is worth a thousand words, but some ideas are not best conveyed with a picture, but words. There's nothing wrong with sharing more than superficial ideas.
I wasn't that 'serious' really, but more lightheartedly self-criticizing how my own trains of thought might get long sometimes, but I think we've all been there at some point. But I do appreciate your support of ones expression though as that is important :)

- ÆCIII
 

firsttruck

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I don’t think anyone is on record using the term exoskeleton design or exoskeleton frame prior to the Cybertruck. I haven’t researched this, but I doubt it.

I’m pretty sure Munro adopted the term after Musk used it to describe the Cybertruck.
Munro 2007/2008 plane design had that.
The 1940s Republic RC3 SeaBee plane had a 3mm thick aluminum skin made from a special aluminum formula.

There are several references about exoskeleton in vehicle design from other groups even earlier in the 2000s.

Franz might have seen some of these.

---------------------------------------

Massachusetts Institute of Technology - MIT group presents research on city car of the future
Alexandra Kahn, Media Lab
Publication Date: September 1, 2004
https://news.mit.edu/2004/smartcars

Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] 1689455900882

---------------------------------------

Design: The Guru of Impossible Engineering Creates a Car
What would happen if an architect renowned for his unruly, twisted-metal structures decided to craft a new kind of automobile? We´re about to find out.
By Jessie Scanlon | Published Sep 25, 2004
https://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2004-09/design-guru-impossible-engineering-creates-car/

.....
In another concept on display, a lightweight passenger compartment is suspended from the car’s exoskeleton. Decoupling the passenger cabin from the car body creates opportunities for more flexible designs. It also allows for new safety features. Today’s auto bodies are built with crumple zones that compress during an accident and absorb the energy of the impact. In one proposed additional safety system, the cabin hangs from an internal ceiling beam and a layer of fluid separates it from the car’s exoskeleton. In a collision, the swinging of the cabin and the fluid buffer would act as shock absorbers.

---------------------------------------

Designers of Tomorrow Show Off Concept Cars
Inspired by exoskeletons, three automotive concept cars were unveiled in September at the annual American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) automotive design internship event.
Students from the College for Creative Studies and Univ. of Michigan created automotive forms for internship program.
Oct. 12, 2007
By Jill Jusko
https://www.industryweek.com/the-ec...4/designers-of-tomorrow-show-off-concept-cars


Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] industryweek_2293_15148pontiachematon


---------------------------------------

"Inside Out" Winners Show Future of Car Design
What you see here is the Dodge Dendro, a concept-car winner from the 19th annual American Iron and Steel Institute automotive design internship.
Sep 21, 2007
https://www.wired.com/2007/09/inside-out-winn/

Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] dodge_dendro


---------------------------------------

Turtle car points to the future
Thermoplastic exoskeleton could revolutionise car design.
By David McCowen
October 2016
https://www.drive.com.au/news/turtle-car-points-to-the-future-20140303-33z5o/

.....
The theory goes that the turtle car’s plates could be rendered by robot lasers in a tool-free environment described as fused deposition modelling.

Each panel would be created layer by layer from thermoplastic material that serves as the car’s skeleton and skin. The plastics could be infused with carbon fibres, adding immense strength to the package.


Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] 1689457499773


---------------------------------------
 
Last edited:

Ogre

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Munro 2007/2008 plane design had that.
The 1940s Republic RC3 SeaBee plane had a 3mm thick aluminum skin made from a special aluminum formula.

There are several references about exoskeleton in vehicle design from other groups even earlier in the 2000s.

Franz might have seen some of these.

---------------------------------------

Massachusetts Institute of Technology - MIT group presents research on city car of the future
Alexandra Kahn, Media Lab
Publication Date: September 1, 2004
https://news.mit.edu/2004/smartcars

1689455900882.png

---------------------------------------

Design: The Guru of Impossible Engineering Creates a Car
What would happen if an architect renowned for his unruly, twisted-metal structures decided to craft a new kind of automobile? We´re about to find out.
By Jessie Scanlon | Published Sep 25, 2004
https://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2004-09/design-guru-impossible-engineering-creates-car/

.....
In another concept on display, a lightweight passenger compartment is suspended from the car’s exoskeleton. Decoupling the passenger cabin from the car body creates opportunities for more flexible designs. It also allows for new safety features. Today’s auto bodies are built with crumple zones that compress during an accident and absorb the energy of the impact. In one proposed additional safety system, the cabin hangs from an internal ceiling beam and a layer of fluid separates it from the car’s exoskeleton. In a collision, the swinging of the cabin and the fluid buffer would act as shock absorbers.

---------------------------------------

Designers of Tomorrow Show Off Concept Cars
Inspired by exoskeletons, three automotive concept cars were unveiled in September at the annual American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI) automotive design internship event.
Students from the College for Creative Studies and Univ. of Michigan created automotive forms for internship program.
Oct. 12, 2007
By Jill Jusko
https://www.industryweek.com/the-ec...4/designers-of-tomorrow-show-off-concept-cars


industryweek_2293_15148pontiachematon.jpg


---------------------------------------

"Inside Out" Winners Show Future of Car Design
What you see here is the Dodge Dendro, a concept-car winner from the 19th annual American Iron and Steel Institute automotive design internship.
Sep 21, 2007
https://www.wired.com/2007/09/inside-out-winn/

dodge_dendro.jpg


---------------------------------------

Turtle car points to the future
Thermoplastic exoskeleton could revolutionise car design.
By David McCowen
October 2016
https://www.drive.com.au/news/turtle-car-points-to-the-future-20140303-33z5o/

.....
The theory goes that the turtle car’s plates could be rendered by robot lasers in a tool-free environment described as fused deposition modelling.

Each panel would be created layer by layer from thermoplastic material that serves as the car’s skeleton and skin. The plastics could be infused with carbon fibres, adding immense strength to the package.


1689457499773.png


---------------------------------------
Good catch!

But your examples just highlights how random the definition of “exoskeleton” is in people’s eyes. In this concept, the exoskeleton is not the skin of the body, but an actual physical cage which is outside of the body. From your quote “a lightweight passenger compartment is suspended from the car’s exoskeleton”

Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] 1689458463489


Look at this kit car which is actually for sale, same idea. They are talking a bout a skeleton in the more skin and bones sense; but the bones are on the outside. Cybertruck’s bones and skin are the same (At least some of them).

Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] 1689458580620


Unlike terms like “Unibody” or “Ladder Frame” there is no established industry standard for what an exoskeleton really is. People are using the same term to mean multiple different things.
 

Crissa

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So, what do you call it when it is bonded with adhesive? What about Friction Stir Welding? What if the panels are not structural in one part of the aircraft, but are in another? What if there is skin that is riveted, in one part, but fabric over ribs in another part?
Sounds like you've just learned that things with exoskeletons are complicated. There's lots of binaries that, when you start to look at things, start seeming like there's actually a continuum between them.

It's okay, I'm not taking it personally ^-^

-Crissa
 


firsttruck

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Good catch!

But your examples just highlights how random the definition of “exoskeleton” is in people’s eyes. In this concept, the exoskeleton is not the skin of the body, but an actual physical cage which is outside of the body. From your quote “a lightweight passenger compartment is suspended from the car’s exoskeleton”

1689458463489.png


Look at this kit car which is actually for sale, same idea. They are talking a bout a skeleton in the more skin and bones sense; but the bones are on the outside. Cybertruck’s bones and skin are the same (At least some of them).

500


Unlike terms like “Unibody” or “Ladder Frame” there is no established industry standard for what an exoskeleton really is. People are using the same term to mean multiple different things.

Yes, I skipped most of those types except for the MIT one because the others (like your kit example) are really more regular frame with an external full entire body roll cage.
 

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I deleted this once because I thought it might not contribute to the discussion but, I too, haven’t heard the term exoskeleton in my aviation piloting career. Interestingly, the SpaceShipTwo fuselage certainly met that definition.

Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck BIW body-in-white frames with front/rear castings 🤩 [7/11/23] IMG_2298
 

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A. Could be water sensitive paint for leak testing.

B. Could be a POLICE variant
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