scottf200

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Contrast with side windows, that are typically tempered glass (which is why unlike windshields, side glass beak into a billion square shards when smashed).
I was thinking that all Tesla's come with lamented glass for at least the front driver & passenger windows now.

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cvalue13 said:
Contrast with side windows, that are typically tempered glass (which is why unlike windshields, side glass beak into a billion square shards when smashed).
scottf200:
I was thinking that all Tesla's come with lamented glass for at least the front driver & passenger windows now.

I'm not sure which is worse, "glass beak"
Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck Prototype Glass Window Manufacturers -- AGP vs FUYAO 1689985747748

or lamented glass
Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck Prototype Glass Window Manufacturers -- AGP vs FUYAO 1689986024560
Tesla Cybertruck Cybertruck Prototype Glass Window Manufacturers -- AGP vs FUYAO 1689986324093


I think lamented glass is when you're really sorry you broke your neighbors window.
 
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scottf200:
I was thinking that all Tesla's come with lamented glass for at least the front driver & passenger windows now.

I'm not sure which is worse, "glass beak"
1689985747748.png

or lamented glass
1689986024560.png
1689986324093.png


I think lamented glass is when you're really sorry you broke your neighbors glass.
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Jhodgesatmb

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Two points:
1) What kind of glass is on the Semi and who supplies it? I remember that it's supposed to be tougher because of regulations where even if there is a small crack, the truck is no longer road-worthy until the glass is replaced.
2) Following the 2019 CT reveal, I remember Munro talking about ALON by Surmet. He was under the impression that that's what Tesla Armour Glass would be made from - http://www.surmet.com/products-and-applications/ALON-Transparent-Armor/index.php
Tesla decided to invent their own. The patent application was shown here a while back.
I was thinking that all Tesla's come with lamented glass for at least the front driver & passenger windows now.

vk7ayEO.jpg
earlier this year Tesla started putting laminated glass on the rear windows of at least the Model Y as well, so the whole car uses the same glass as far as I know.
 

Jhodgesatmb

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That said, and I’m deep in my armchair here, I think that the types of laminated glass required of windshields are more similar to the sort of laminated glass used for armored glass. This is why a broken windshield sticks together when smashed. Armored glass may be just like this but with thicker or multiple layers of glass/lamination.

Contrast with side windows, that are typically tempered glass (which is why unlike windshields, side glass beak into a billion square shards when smashed).

From my armchair, then, I could see safety regulations cutting either way with respect to windshields: the “armoring” qualities causing it to be either further in or further out of bounds.

In any event, these differences in construction are why windshields are more expensive than side glass (on an area basis), and why armored glass is more expensive than windshields.

I suppose it’s possible that if Tesla was cutting costs anywhere, having armored side glass would be one item on the bubble
Tesla’s armor glass patent application talks about how many layers, how thick the layers are, and their constitution. Worth a look even for armchair analysts :)
 
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cvalue13

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Tesla’s armor glass patent application talks about how many layers, how thick the layers are, and their constitution. Worth a look even for armchair analysts :)
Thank you for the lead, and the patent does focus on the windshield construction and to that extent confirms that it’s a lamination of the sort that is present in all windshields

“The present disclosure relates to vehicle windshields. More specifically, the present disclosure relates to multilayer glass stack structures for vehicle windshields with improved durability.”

So, assuming the use of this patent, then with respect to the windshield it will use lamination like all windshields, and the differences in the patent are more about the process and makeup (eg not using lime glass).

but the patent leaves open the broader question about differences between the windshield (not surprising to be laminated) and the other glass, particularly side windows

In a few spots of the patent, it does provide a possible generalization to use elsewhere in the vehicle. But those sorts of included generalizations are commonly drafting attempts to allow future claims (or defense) of patent breadth - similar to a boilerplate “or we might do something else.” Which is to say, it’s difficult to conclude the intended use of this patent extends beyond the windshield proper.

And it seems reasonable that, even if side glass is “armored” it is done so in a different and more cost-effective way that the windshield would require (given optical tolerances for vision sensors).

In any event, I find interesting the non-marketing take on the patent substance, from people in the “armored” glass manufacturing business:


June 30, 2022 |
Security News


You'll see Musk describe the windows as "Armor Glass" and "transparent metal"—which certainly sound hearty.

But what is "transparent metal"? Is that the same as "transparent aluminum" (which is extremely strong)?

No. It seems more likely that what Musk is calling "transparent metal" is similar to borosilicate. Borosilicate is commonly used in lab glassware and older clear-glass baking dishes sold under the "Pyrex" trademark. It's about 3% metal. And borosilicate is indeed tougher than regular soda-lime glass. But it's rarely used in ballistic or blast-rated safety glazing.
WHAT IS TESLA ARMOR GLASS MADE OF?
So then, what actually is "Armor Glass" (apart from clearly not bulletproof, or even shatter-proof)? Is it just a sheet of Pyrex with a tougher name?

No. In many ways, it's much more than that. According to patent documents, Tesla Armor Glass (aka "Durable Glass for Vehicle") is a two-ply laminated glass product:

"A multilayer glass stack for a vehicle windshield with improved durability …. The multilayer glass stack includes an external-facing glass layer, an internal-facing glass layer, and an adhesive interlayer positioned between the external-facing and internal-facing glass layers. The external-facing glass layer comprises borosilicate."

Most of the advantages listed in the patent are related to durability, although few have to do with blunt-force resistance (in fact, a steel-ball drop—similar to the Cybertruck demo—is a part of the standard UL 972 testing for "Standard for Burglary Resisting Glazing Material"). It seems to be designed to avoid scratches, pitting, and chipping—and to reduce thermal cycling in the glass, thus preventing "micro damage" (like chips and pits) from growing into cracks that would need repair.

Interestingly, the patent also lists "Additional advantages of such improved multilayer glass stacks include…greater technology integration into glass components." In other words, the possibility of directly integrating sensors or displays into the windshield of the vehicle—something of obvious interest to a technology-first auto manufacturer like Tesla (although they don't yet appear to have a problem in need of this solution).

Nowhere in the patent are "bullet", "ballistic", "blast", "armor", or "force" mentioned (apart from two brief notes that "external forces" and "forced contact with small gravel or sand" can damage standard auto glass).
….
 


Jhodgesatmb

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Thank you for the lead, and the patent does focus on the windshield construction and to that extent confirms that it’s a lamination of the sort that is present in all windshields

“The present disclosure relates to vehicle windshields. More specifically, the present disclosure relates to multilayer glass stack structures for vehicle windshields with improved durability.”

So, assuming the use of this patent, then with respect to the windshield it will use lamination like all windshields, and the differences in the patent are more about the process and makeup (eg not using lime glass).

but the patent leaves open the broader question about differences between the windshield (not surprising to be laminated) and the other glass, particularly side windows

In a few spots of the patent, it does provide a possible generalization to use elsewhere in the vehicle. But those sorts of included generalizations are commonly drafting attempts to allow future claims (or defense) of patent breadth - similar to a boilerplate “or we might do something else.” Which is to say, it’s difficult to conclude the intended use of this patent extends beyond the windshield proper.

And it seems reasonable that, even if side glass is “armored” it is done so in a different and more cost-effective way that the windshield would require (given optical tolerances for vision sensors).

In any event, I find interesting the non-marketing take on the patent substance, from people in the “armored” glass manufacturing business:


June 30, 2022 |
Security News


You'll see Musk describe the windows as "Armor Glass" and "transparent metal"—which certainly sound hearty.

But what is "transparent metal"? Is that the same as "transparent aluminum" (which is extremely strong)?

No. It seems more likely that what Musk is calling "transparent metal" is similar to borosilicate. Borosilicate is commonly used in lab glassware and older clear-glass baking dishes sold under the "Pyrex" trademark. It's about 3% metal. And borosilicate is indeed tougher than regular soda-lime glass. But it's rarely used in ballistic or blast-rated safety glazing.
WHAT IS TESLA ARMOR GLASS MADE OF?
So then, what actually is "Armor Glass" (apart from clearly not bulletproof, or even shatter-proof)? Is it just a sheet of Pyrex with a tougher name?

No. In many ways, it's much more than that. According to patent documents, Tesla Armor Glass (aka "Durable Glass for Vehicle") is a two-ply laminated glass product:

"A multilayer glass stack for a vehicle windshield with improved durability …. The multilayer glass stack includes an external-facing glass layer, an internal-facing glass layer, and an adhesive interlayer positioned between the external-facing and internal-facing glass layers. The external-facing glass layer comprises borosilicate."

Most of the advantages listed in the patent are related to durability, although few have to do with blunt-force resistance (in fact, a steel-ball drop—similar to the Cybertruck demo—is a part of the standard UL 972 testing for "Standard for Burglary Resisting Glazing Material"). It seems to be designed to avoid scratches, pitting, and chipping—and to reduce thermal cycling in the glass, thus preventing "micro damage" (like chips and pits) from growing into cracks that would need repair.

Interestingly, the patent also lists "Additional advantages of such improved multilayer glass stacks include…greater technology integration into glass components." In other words, the possibility of directly integrating sensors or displays into the windshield of the vehicle—something of obvious interest to a technology-first auto manufacturer like Tesla (although they don't yet appear to have a problem in need of this solution).

Nowhere in the patent are "bullet", "ballistic", "blast", "armor", or "force" mentioned (apart from two brief notes that "external forces" and "forced contact with small gravel or sand" can damage standard auto glass).
….
All Elon has told us (the world) is that the Cybertruck will have armored glass. Since he demonstrated it on the side windows (failed) it is a safe assumption (albeit an assumption) that all of the windows will be of the same material. From a 'Tesla' point of view, which is one where you minimize complexity and maximize functionality, it only makes sense to use the same material for all windows. Otherwise you have a pile of windows of material1 and a pile of windows of material2, etc., and the whole supply chain and logistics behind each of those. The same argument can be applied to the 3 mm stainless. It may cost less to build a single hood with thinner stainless, but when you consider the tooling, logistics, supply chain, etc. impacts you probably save money by having the hood be 3 mm.

I do not doubt that Tesla has found a way to make armored glass more affordably than Alon, which is supplied primarily to the government which sadly has deep pockets for the scenarios in which Alon is used. It may have the same functional characteristics, and might even be better in some ways. I guess we will find out when the Cybertruck is put to the test of actual humans in their actual lives.
 
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cvalue13

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From a 'Tesla' point of view, which is one where you minimize complexity and maximize functionality, it only makes sense to use the same material for all windows. Otherwise you have a pile of windows of material1 and a pile of windows of material2, etc., and the whole supply chain and logistics behind each of those. The same argument can be applied to the 3 mm stainless.
can it?

SS is a stock material from which different parts are cut. You buy giant rolls of a single material, and from it make your various parts.

glass is not that type of material. Each pane might use a similar materials approach, but is fabricated separately

also, unlike the SS, it’s really unlikely Tesla is making its own CT glass. It doesn’t for any other car.

so if the glass is an outsourced material, it’s looking to optimize really only capex cost per unit in its 3rd parry contracts, not vertical capex and OpEx of manufacturing.

I take the point, but the analogy seems off base?

all else equal, sure they seek to simplify. But that principle bends if at some point all things aren’t sufficiently equal.

to wit: standard windshields are wildly more expensive to manufacture than other vehicleg glass, and BEV windshields are even more expensive to the extent they must have the optical tolerances or camera lenses for any pass-through sensors

seems a context ripe for all else to not be equal

to wit, while only a prototype, one beta for sure, and so reasonably all betas, have two different manufacturers for the windshields vs other glass

like you though I have a strong assumption Tesla will have to make good on the passenger windows having break resistance - given the unveil mishap, that would be a particularly awkward feature to not offer

and not to forget: unlike explicit comments that 4WS will be standard on all models, I don’t think the glass was ever so described?
 

CyberTruckGlass

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Thank you for the lead, and the patent does focus on the windshield construction and to that extent confirms that it’s a lamination of the sort that is present in all windshields

“The present disclosure relates to vehicle windshields. More specifically, the present disclosure relates to multilayer glass stack structures for vehicle windshields with improved durability.”

So, assuming the use of this patent, then with respect to the windshield it will use lamination like all windshields, and the differences in the patent are more about the process and makeup (eg not using lime glass).

but the patent leaves open the broader question about differences between the windshield (not surprising to be laminated) and the other glass, particularly side windows

In a few spots of the patent, it does provide a possible generalization to use elsewhere in the vehicle. But those sorts of included generalizations are commonly drafting attempts to allow future claims (or defense) of patent breadth - similar to a boilerplate “or we might do something else.” Which is to say, it’s difficult to conclude the intended use of this patent extends beyond the windshield proper.

And it seems reasonable that, even if side glass is “armored” it is done so in a different and more cost-effective way that the windshield would require (given optical tolerances for vision sensors).

In any event, I find interesting the non-marketing take on the patent substance, from people in the “armored” glass manufacturing business:


June 30, 2022 |
Security News


You'll see Musk describe the windows as "Armor Glass" and "transparent metal"—which certainly sound hearty.

But what is "transparent metal"? Is that the same as "transparent aluminum" (which is extremely strong)?

No. It seems more likely that what Musk is calling "transparent metal" is similar to borosilicate. Borosilicate is commonly used in lab glassware and older clear-glass baking dishes sold under the "Pyrex" trademark. It's about 3% metal. And borosilicate is indeed tougher than regular soda-lime glass. But it's rarely used in ballistic or blast-rated safety glazing.
WHAT IS TESLA ARMOR GLASS MADE OF?
So then, what actually is "Armor Glass" (apart from clearly not bulletproof, or even shatter-proof)? Is it just a sheet of Pyrex with a tougher name?

No. In many ways, it's much more than that. According to patent documents, Tesla Armor Glass (aka "Durable Glass for Vehicle") is a two-ply laminated glass product:

"A multilayer glass stack for a vehicle windshield with improved durability …. The multilayer glass stack includes an external-facing glass layer, an internal-facing glass layer, and an adhesive interlayer positioned between the external-facing and internal-facing glass layers. The external-facing glass layer comprises borosilicate."

Most of the advantages listed in the patent are related to durability, although few have to do with blunt-force resistance (in fact, a steel-ball drop—similar to the Cybertruck demo—is a part of the standard UL 972 testing for "Standard for Burglary Resisting Glazing Material"). It seems to be designed to avoid scratches, pitting, and chipping—and to reduce thermal cycling in the glass, thus preventing "micro damage" (like chips and pits) from growing into cracks that would need repair.

Interestingly, the patent also lists "Additional advantages of such improved multilayer glass stacks include…greater technology integration into glass components." In other words, the possibility of directly integrating sensors or displays into the windshield of the vehicle—something of obvious interest to a technology-first auto manufacturer like Tesla (although they don't yet appear to have a problem in need of this solution).

Nowhere in the patent are "bullet", "ballistic", "blast", "armor", or "force" mentioned (apart from two brief notes that "external forces" and "forced contact with small gravel or sand" can damage standard auto glass).
….
For it to stop bullets they have to add polyarbonate (Lexan) either laminating it to the two plies of glass o even leaving a gap (that is the way we do it). www.cybertruckglass.com

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