Does anyone think All wheel Steering will be available on all models?

Tinker71

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I think a 2 motor rwd will be a thing sooner than many think. It should COST Telsa $6000 less all things being equal. 2 motors with torque control will not get stuck too in mud and snow for most users. Fleet owners want to avoid encouraging off road use unless it is a business requirement. 2 motors with torque vectoring is way better than single motor plus differential.
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Tinker71

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You can buy it from Monroe when the CT is released. Let us know. ;)

Btw, loving that my formerly unpopular opinion that they will only produce a quad motor (to save on manufacturing costs associated with complexity of lines with many options) sold in software limited variants for cheaper models is now seemingly more acceptable to the larger crowd!

I will enjoy that when it comes to fruition.
I really don't think all models will have the same drive train with software limits. You are probably right that all drive wheels get a motor but they won't put 2 motors in a front end and lock them out with software. I am not sure about the motors. They might all be the same. The cost difference between a 300 hp 20000 rpm and 150 hp 8000 rpm might only be $150 at scale. If rare earth magnets are limiting it might be worth producing different motors. The interface and case would probably be the same.
 

JBee

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I really don't think all models will have the same drive train with software limits. You are probably right that all drive wheels get a motor but they won't put 2 motors in a front end and lock them out with software. I am not sure about the motors. They might all be the same. The cost difference between a 300 hp 20000 rpm and 150 hp 8000 rpm might only be $150 at scale. If rare earth magnets are limiting it might be worth producing different motors. The interface and case would probably be the same.
I generally dislike artificial software limiters.
The exception is if its a upgrade after they needed to run some tests to validate and grade battery cell performance.

If they do a new smaller version, expect the gears and case to change significantly. Ideally expect a planetary gear to take over.
 

Ogre

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I really don't think all models will have the same drive train with software limits. You are probably right that all drive wheels get a motor but they won't put 2 motors in a front end and lock them out with software. I am not sure about the motors. They might all be the same. The cost difference between a 300 hp 20000 rpm and 150 hp 8000 rpm might only be $150 at scale. If rare earth magnets are limiting it might be worth producing different motors. The interface and case would probably be the same.
Totally agree. Using software to disable motors is somewhat silly and pretty unlikely.

Your idea above of shipping with 2WD rear only makes much more sense.
 

Ogre

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Aside from FSD, there are only a couple cases where Tesla has software limited stuff.

#1 Heated Rear Seats on the Model 3 SR were disabled by software and available as a software unlock. I think they just didn’t have enough Model 3 SRs sold to merit building a second rear seat.

#2 Acceleration Unlock which makes the Model Y go from being fast to being faster
 basically makes the Model Y LR into something very close to a Model Y Performance.

I can see something like acceleration unlock on the Cybertruck. I could also see some kind of off-road specific software features which are unlocked in software or part of a hardware/ software package similar to Model Y Performance. This might unlock some 3D terrain mapping, crab walk, maybe crawl mode where it goes super slow and you have more precision control over the accelerator.
 


ÆCIII

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This may have already been mentioned, but with steer by wire I think they may likely produce the hardware identical for all versions, and then possibly make all wheel steering software limited or software activated. This would make the production lines most efficient while providing additional revenue for those that want the feature (sounds familiar) hmm ...

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but this is a long thread and I'm short on time.
 

Tinker71

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Aside from FSD, there are only a couple cases where Tesla has software limited stuff.

#1 Heated Rear Seats on the Model 3 SR were disabled by software and available as a software unlock. I think they just didn’t have enough Model 3 SRs sold to merit building a second rear seat.

#2 Acceleration Unlock which makes the Model Y go from being fast to being faster
 basically makes the Model Y LR into something very close to a Model Y Performance.

I can see something like acceleration unlock on the Cybertruck. I could also see some kind of off-road specific software features which are unlocked in software or part of a hardware/ software package similar to Model Y Performance. This might unlock some 3D terrain mapping, crab walk, maybe crawl mode where it goes super slow and you have more precision control over the accelerator.
I don't mind paying to unlock performance upgrades. This is justifiable. Tesla has to warranty certain things. Unlocking performance probably means increase stress on systems therefore more potential cost to Tesla. What I don't want to see is carrying around a bunch of dead weight for something I won't ever buy. I like your explanation on the seat warmers. I am ok with some of this. I just hope Tesla won't get greedy like BMW.
 

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I don't mind paying to unlock performance upgrades. This is justifiable. Tesla has to warranty certain things. Unlocking performance probably means increase stress on systems therefore more potential cost to Tesla. What I don't want to see is carrying around a bunch of dead weight for something I won't ever buy. I like your explanation on the seat warmers. I am ok with some of this. I just hope Tesla won't get greedy like BMW.
Totally agree. I don‘t think there will be anything which is dead weight on the Cybertruck.

I don’t think they will turn off 4WS or motors with software. They might add software features though.

Anything safety related gets turns on all the time.
 

rr6013

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How much cost exactly do you think it will add?
RWS cost is negligible. Wishbone suspension on all four corners implies full parts utilization rather than separate part nos. for front and rear. SO the savings from fixed rear struts, reduction in parts will be contributing savings to added RWS cost.
RWS adds LF spindle ass'y to RR and RF to LR. Turn radius limiter part no. hardware is bolt-on. Backing plates part no. for fixed rear spindle should be reused for emergency brake fitment to RWS spindles. Rear drive axelshafts are replaced by new knuckle+half shafts. Rack and pinion at rear is anybody’s guess. Mechanical designs exist but Tesla may not want to add another failure node to its supply chain. Thus BYO Tesla RWS.

Un-SWAG amortizing R&D, casting and engineer, subtract axels, fixed rear strut-DELETE-, add McPherson strut spindles, backing plate, limiter, steer mech. and axel halfshafts+knuckles. Odds&ends like brake lines, sensors and rotors are essentially a wash. Per Cybertruck unit of cost:
  • R&D - $ 0.60
  • Front steer sensor integration - $171.00
  • Casting - $ 0.07
  • McPherson strut - $ 27.00 limiter
  • RWS mechanism - $187.00
  • Backing plate - $ —
  • Axel halfshafts +Knuckles ass’y - $290.00
  • Savings from part nos. delete - +$ 0.11
  • Cost per vehicle sub-total $675.56
  • 3rd Party Supplier, shipping OH $ 120.00
  • Tesla handling charges $ 55.00
  • Grand TOTAL RWS $850.56
EDIT: Siri fired. Re-calculated by hand. RWS not neglible!
 
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JBee

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RWS cost is negligible. Wishbone suspension on all four corners implies full parts utilization rather than separate part nos. for front and rear. SO the savings from fixed rear struts, reduction in parts will be contributing savings to added RWS cost.
RWS adds LF spindle ass'y to RR and RF to LR. Turn radius limiter part no. hardware is bolt-on. Backing plates part no. for fixed rear spindle should be reused for emergency brake fitment to RWS spindles. Rear drive axelshafts are replaced by new knuckle+half shafts. Rack and pinion at rear is anybody’s guess. Mechanical designs exist but Tesla may not want to add another failure node to its supply chain. Thus BYO Tesla RWS.

Un-SWAG amortizing R&D, casting and engineer, subtract axels, fixed rear strut-DELETE-, add McPherson strut spindles, backing plate, limiter, steer mech. and axel halfshafts+knuckles. Odds&ends like brake lines, sensors and rotors are essentially a wash. Per Cybertruck unit of cost:
  • R&D - $ 0.60
  • Front steer sensor integration - $171.00
  • Casting - $ 0.07
  • McPherson strut - $ 27.00 limiter
  • RWS mechanism - $187.00
  • Backing plate - $ —
  • Axel halfshafts +Knuckles ass’y - $290.00
  • Savings from part nos. delete - +$ 0.11
  • Cost per vehicle sub-total $289.89
  • 3rd Party Supplier, shipping OH $ 120.00
  • Tesla handling charges $ 55.00
  • Grand TOTAL RWS $464.89
I'm pretty sure EM will negotiate that down to $420.69 :ROFLMAO:

Good points. The only problem is that the rear suspension has to be a inboard push rod type to keep components under the bed.
 


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I'm pretty sure EM will negotiate that down to $420.69 :ROFLMAO:

Good points. The only problem is that the rear suspension has to be a inboard push rod type to keep components under the bed.
Cantilever? I assumed the sailplane up inside had volume for any size shock components.

Nah, can’t be right neither. The castings have the shock towers.
 

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Cantilever? I assumed the sailplane up inside had volume for any size shock components.

Nah, can’t be right neither. The castings have the shock towers.
The volume inside the sails storage is directly above the tyre, which is a difficult place for a shock tower without a super high hub knuckle. Better off having a F1 style pushrod setup with horizontal shock and spring inboard and keep it compact and tidy by integrating all the mounting points into the rear cast.
 

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I don’t care. RWS isn’t necessity. Had 1972 Chev Crewcab dually. What a stretch! It wasn’t difficult to avoid cutting curbs and Elon cones.
Importantly, AT-style tires treat curbs like rock and nicely lift the vehicle over. AT sidewalls are so compliant its actually NBD to the tire or the passengers. BUT you’ll get all kinds of feedback from Karen’s.
RWS is nice, but considering the vehicle, tire fitment and clearance totally no necessity.
I disagree with you (about the main reason for RWS). I back into parking spaces because my F450 (which I no longer have) was big enough that there were times when I went to back out of my spot where I couldn't even start turning my wheels before my rear was against the truck behind me. So, I always back in now so that I can initiate my turn coming out of the spot before the rear end clears.

Why back in other than that? People will see you backing in but not backing out.

With rear steering, backing in will no longer be necessary.

From my extensive research... LOL... I've found that while my F150 is 231.9 inches long and the CT is shorter at 224.4 inches long, the wheelbases are quite different! My truck has a wheelbase of 122.4 inches and the CT is 149.9 inches! Those extra 27.5 inches will mean the CT will turn a lot wider (given same front turning angle and track width) than my F150 which already isn't exactly a slalom champ.

So, yes, please, oh please, have four wheel steering!

at 23.2 degrees of steering input, and assuming no four wheel steering,
F150 = 286.8"
CT = 349.7"

That's 10.48' diameter worse than my F150 (more than a lane worse and my truck already sucks at turns!

One last thing... and I truly don't know this answer.

When you go around a really sharp corner, if you have posi-track, one wheel will have to slide a bit. Further, front wheels are set up to where the inside wheel in a turn articulates to a sharper angle than the outer wheel to improve traction and reduce tire wear.

With four-wheel steering it should be possible to do the same with the rear tires especially with Tesla's engineering and software. Here's the question: It may not make a lot of difference but how much more efficient would a vehicle be if all 4 wheels could be aimed in the optimal direction at all times? They could be absolutely straight in reference to each other when driving straight and software could make the vehicle "track" thus eliminating the tire scrubbing toe and camber. Tires could last longer, turning grip could be maximized, straight lines would be more efficient. There may be something to this!
 

JBee

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I disagree with you (about the main reason for RWS). I back into parking spaces because my F450 (which I no longer have) was big enough that there were times when I went to back out of my spot where I couldn't even start turning my wheels before my rear was against the truck behind me. So, I always back in now so that I can initiate my turn coming out of the spot before the rear end clears.

Why back in other than that? People will see you backing in but not backing out.

With rear steering, backing in will no longer be necessary.

From my extensive research... LOL... I've found that while my F150 is 231.9 inches long and the CT is shorter at 224.4 inches long, the wheelbases are quite different! My truck has a wheelbase of 122.4 inches and the CT is 149.9 inches! Those extra 27.5 inches will mean the CT will turn a lot wider (given same front turning angle and track width) than my F150 which already isn't exactly a slalom champ.

So, yes, please, oh please, have four wheel steering!

at 23.2 degrees of steering input, and assuming no four wheel steering,
F150 = 286.8"
CT = 349.7"

That's 10.48' diameter worse than my F150 (more than a lane worse and my truck already sucks at turns!

One last thing... and I truly don't know this answer.

When you go around a really sharp corner, if you have posi-track, one wheel will have to slide a bit. Further, front wheels are set up to where the inside wheel in a turn articulates to a sharper angle than the outer wheel to improve traction and reduce tire wear.

With four-wheel steering it should be possible to do the same with the rear tires especially with Tesla's engineering and software. Here's the question: It may not make a lot of difference but how much more efficient would a vehicle be if all 4 wheels could be aimed in the optimal direction at all times? They could be absolutely straight in reference to each other when driving straight and software could make the vehicle "track" thus eliminating the tire scrubbing toe and camber. Tires could last longer, turning grip could be maximized, straight lines would be more efficient. There may be something to this!
All valid points. Sorry, just not new. â˜ș

The rear wheels won't have much steering angle because theres barely room in the rear wheel arches as it is, so the ability of the rear to follow the front track is limited, but still worthwhile especially for driving in deep sand. The long wheel base is why EM was mounting kerbs and found 4WS was necessary.
 

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With rear steering, backing in will no longer be necessary.
It is always a good idea to reverse into a parking space rather than reverse out of it.

Parking spaces are usually surrounded by static objects. Usually other cars and a parking barricade. When you reverse into a parking space, you have great visibility as you approach the stall and so long as you don’t hit the cars which aren’t moving, it’s a safe movement.

Parking lot isles are filled with moving objects of all shapes and sizes. When you reverse out of a parking space, your visibility is massively limited and you are backing into a space with other moving cars and pedestrians which you often can’t see until they are already in danger of getting struck. If there are 2 cars reversing towards each other, you often only have a fraction of a second for both drivers to react or you collide.

(Ideally you pull through into the next stall and never have to reverse.)

4 wheel steering doesn’t change this at all.
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