Look out Tesla, Ford, GM, Rivian - here comes Ram Revolution!

Quicksilver

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I remember years ago Dodge came up with the "Contractor" concept pickup truck that would have an ICE engine and electric motors for "boost". When parked the engine would only run on a few cylinders to power a generator that would provide power for tools that tradesmen would use at jobsites. I was itching to buy one and stopped in at the local Dodge dealer several times only to be told that they had decided not to make that model.
 

Ogre

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Could Ram be built with Solid State batteries? It could explain their late appearance. And Iā€™ve heard that Quantum Scape is going to launch production of these batteries by 2024 and got a contract with another top 10 carmaker.
Just wild thoughts....
Nobody has licked manufacturing solid state batteries at scale.
 

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Nobody has licked solid-state manufacturing batteries at scale.
Not yet, you are right. But Quantum Scape Is building a plant, bought a lot of equipment, and spent tons of money on it. They have already hired around 600 employees, and leased for 10 years 3-4 buildings in San Jose, CA. I do not follow them, and my data could be a little bit old. But I know for sure that they are the only ones who tested 16 layers of Solid-State Battery and provided all data. Many companies claimed they had made the same progress, but no one provided open data and gave it to a third party for independent testing.
I will read some news about QS tomorrow if I have some time. It got me interested.
 

Ogre

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Not yet, you are right. But Quantum Scape Is building a plant, bought a lot of equipment, and spent tons of money on it. They have already hired around 600 employees, and leased for 10 years 3-4 buildings in San Jose, CA. I do not follow them, and my data could be a little bit old. But I know for sure that they are the only ones who tested 16 layers of Solid-State Battery and provided all data. Many companies claimed they had made the same progress, but no one provided open data and gave it to a third party for independent testing.
I will read some news about QS tomorrow if I have some time. It got me interested.
Solid state batteries has been coming next yearā€™s technology for 10+ years.

It would massively change the industry if they were able to produce these at scale for a decent price.
 


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Solid-state batteries have been coming next yearā€™s technology for 10+ years.

It would massively change the industry if they were able to produce these at scale for a decent price.
Yes, you are right, but would you hire 600 employees and lease four buildings in San Jose? Buy tons of needed equipment and sign contracts with 3-4 carmakers in the list of top 10 in the world? And starting to build a joint venture with VW???
It sounds kind of stupid to promise 2024 as a year when they mass-scale manufacture and start selling batteries worldwide.
PS, to be honest, I have no idea how far they are in SSB. I just read some articles on the internet and their website. It could take ten more years, but I am glad that we are moving in this direction. I still have a grand of salt because if it was so cool as QS promised, why does Tesla still not work on SSB? Why would Tesla invest millions of dollars on 4680 instead of SSB? As I know, SSB cannot be used in a cylindrical form because the solid separator is not so flexible. It could be bent a little bit but it is still ceramic based.
 

Qball

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Yes, you are right, but would you hire 600 employees and lease four buildings in San Jose? Buy tons of needed equipment and sign contracts with 3-4 carmakers in the list of top 10 in the world? And starting to build a joint venture with VW???
It sounds kind of stupid to promise 2024 as a year when they mass-scale manufacture and start selling batteries worldwide.
PS, to be honest, I have no idea how far they are in SSB. I just read some articles on the internet and their website. It could take ten more years, but I am glad that we are moving in this direction. I still have a grand of salt because if it was so cool as QS promised, why does Tesla still not work on SSB? Why would Tesla invest millions of dollars on 4680 instead of SSB? As I know, SSB cannot be used in a cylindrical form because the solid separator is not so flexible. It could be bent a little bit but it is still ceramic based.
Well, Nikola did exactly what you said with just some renderings and rolling a ā€œprototypeā€ down the hill soā€¦ā€¦ā€¦.maybe just another scam? Theyā€™ve been promising promises for how many years and havenā€™t made a single producible batteries? Not calling them a fraud(yet) but until their technology can reach scaled production at reasonable prices itā€™s still vaporware no matter how good the prototype specs are. MAJORITY of all startups in Silicon Valley fail!

Hummer EV is real but have they reached 200 units sold yet? But hey, that didnā€™t stop Marry emBARRAssment from leading the EV revolution!
 
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Qball

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Except Tesla?

I donā€™t have my Cybertruck yetā€¦
CT isnā€™t a 3d rendering with multiple prototypes moving on their own power, not rolled down hill. Tesla already reached 1 million units EV annualized production rate last year soā€¦ā€¦how does that compare to the ā€œcompetitionā€? We all know why CT is delayed but even with global logistical challenge Tess is the only manufacture that grew at tremendous rate. Sure, we donā€™t have our CT yet but itā€™s far from vaporware. If you do believe CT is vaporware then just cancel your order and rest of us will appreciated the bump in the Queue.

Although with the continued cell constraint they might just release the dual motor standard range CT first like the standard MY out of giga Texas!
 


Ogre

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Yes, you are right, but would you hire 600 employees and lease four buildings in San Jose? Buy tons of needed equipment and sign contracts with 3-4 carmakers in the list of top 10 in the world? And starting to build a joint venture with VW???
Companies are able to produce solid state cells, just not in the volumes you need and at the prices you need for EVs. Might be useful for a lot of other things. A small fast charging battery 1kWh battery likely has lots of uses. But if it costs $200/ kWh to produce them and they canā€™t get that price down, itā€™s going to be quite difficult to make competitive EVs. It might be interesting for luxury or high performance vehicles though.


Why would Tesla invest millions of dollars on 4680 instead of SSB? As I know, SSB cannot be used in a cylindrical form because the solid separator is not so flexible. It could be bent a little bit but it is still ceramic based.
Tesla just confirmed that the cost to build out the 4680 factory is 1/5th the cost to build out a comparable factory and uses a fraction of the space. They have also reduced the labor, energy, and much of the waste associated with producing batteries at volume. Tesla needs huge numbers of batteries right now and they know how to produce them at scale.

There is a bit of tortoise and hair going on here. Solid state is trying to sprint ahead, but the finish line keeps moving as battery makers squeeze more and more out of existing technology. It is very likely Teslaā€˜s current cell costs are under $100/ kWh at this point and declining. BYD is pushing LFP cell pricing lower yet.
 

Ogre

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CT isnā€™t a 3d rendering with multiple prototypes moving on their own power, not rolled down hill. Tesla already reached 1 million units EV annualized production rate last year soā€¦ā€¦how does that compare to the ā€œcompetitionā€?
Vaporware, generally refers to a highly anticipated launch which is late or misses multiple deadlines. The Cybertruck is really the only truck which fits vaguely into that category. Ram hasnā€™t missed any deadlines.

Even if you want to extend the meaning to refer to hyped a products which a company might not be able to ship. Itā€™s not really ā€œThe competitionā€œ so much as just Ram. Toyota has teased a truck but they havenā€™t put any specs out there. Everyone else seems to be in about the same phase of production as Tesla or further along.

Ford has multiple prototypes and is likely to start shipping very soon. GM is producing ā€œTrucksā€ right now and has a prototype Silverado (I think). VW isnā€™t really pumping a truck right now.
 

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I always thought of "vaporware" as a product that despite the chatter, hype, publication, talk, etc, it was a product that will never exist or at least not exist within a reasonable time of a timeline that the product fans or product developer are talking about. I don't think the CT nor the Ram fit that definition. The Nikola Badger fit that definition.

I think saying solid state batteries going into vehicles as their primary source of power in the couple of years is vaporware.
 

Ogre

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I always thought of "vaporware" as a products that despite any chatter, hype, publication, talk, etc, it was a product that will never exist or at least not exist within a reasonable time of any hyped timeline that the product fans or product developer are talking about. I don't think the CT nor the Ram fit that definition. The Nikola Badger fit that definition.
When I first heard the term it was referring to video game projects like Duke Nukem Forever which was 12 years behind schedule but eventually did ship. The origins of the term are in software and Itā€™s almost always referred to projects which were years behind schedule. Cybertruck is not vaporware. Just that it was the only truck out there in that general ballpark.

Nikola Badger was just outright fraud!


But I think perhaps Iā€™m being pedantic. Ram is building unrealistic hype.
 

SpaceYooper

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Ram is building unrealistic hype.
What do you think is realistic for Ram? Do they have to take 500 miles off the table to deliver a truck in 2024?
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