Not a good look for Tesla: diversion team tactics to deal with range complaints

[Jhodgesatmb]

Lol nice try

I mean I have two CT reservations in the low 5 digits, and I'm definitely weighing the options against what's out now, what's going to be out in the near future. But when it comes to range claims yeah I'm going to be salting Tesla's claims downwards a bit, same as I did when comparing other models against the Y. It's pretty sad that a few YouTubers are more trustworthy on range exemplifying than the company, but it's the world we live in until the EPA and or FTC gets their head on straight.

All I'm asking for is people to be aware that some have claimed Tesla is intentionally trying to make it harder to get a service tech to do a proper investigation. It's a claim, not proven in my mind by one article. But daylight is the best sanitizer, so to speak. If it's actually happening we'll definitely hear more about it from the usual suspect sources. If it's happening enough that people report it on a pro-Tesla forum like this one, then we definitely need to hold Tesla accountable. If it's not happening, okay great, we just had a lil debate and people shared some opinions and it blew over, no big deal.

Ball is in Tesla's court here. Do right by customers and this Diversion Team thing is a non event. If that's how it shakes out I'll be happy to say so. If anyone is done wrong by Tesla (or any other company for that matter), don't be afraid to speak up, even in a place that's heavily pro-Tesla. Simple as that.

I have had service techs want to close tickets for issues that I *know* are real. One recurring problem is that I have the windows partly open for my dog (dogs like open windows for some reason and when I walk away the Tesla doesn't close all of the windows and tells me so (of course, by then I am quite some distance away and anyone that wanted access would have had it easily). It is an intermittent problem and appears to be related to an over-sensitive sensor that detects an obstacle and halts the window closing. I have seen it happen in my driveway. Tesla sent a crew out to look at it and they checked the diagnostics and fiddled with the windows but in the end decided that I should watch it some more. I have since mentioned it on several occasions but they do not want to come out again. So I manually close the windows when I am away from home now.

Long story short - this is absolutely true what they do.

I have also tried the range recalibration thing and as painful as it is to run the battery all the way down and charge it all the way up a couple of times is, it does change the range. The car has a memory for how each of us drives and that (on top of all the other factors mentioned in this thread) affect displayed/expected range.

If it weren't for the stainless steel exterior I might be thinking more seriously about the Silverado now that people are actually getting mid-400s in the range department.

Sadly I am in the 6-figure reservation range.

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[cvalue13]

ou're the engineer in charge of deciding how the on-screen range meter calculates range. You have an infinite array of possibilities as to how that range meter ticks down as a person drives.

you just mixed up topics

the 'old' news about the software juicing the range is separate entirely from the current facts of tesla juicing its EPA numbers

but, to answer your question about software juicing the range at the top end:

are you missing the part of the story where the software purportedly changed methodology once below ~mid-tank? your explanation doesn't account for how that 'engineer' arrived at having two different philosophies: basically, "use available data on driving habits and conditions when low, but ignore that when charged"

but in any event, i dont really care much about that part of the 'old' news. it's the part, small part, of the story that is based solely on the source. open ears but skeptical heart.

 

[electricAK]

your explanation doesn't account for how that 'engineer' arrived at having two different philosophies: basically, "use available data on driving habits and conditions when low, but ignore that when charged"

I feel like I addressed that pretty well. The calculation should be dynamic. It will start out with an assumption about good conditions, and then update as time goes on to include real data. Makes perfect sense to me.

Forgive me for mixing up topics here, but to be real, it was the Reuters article that mixed up the two different topics of range calculation and EPA numbers, trying to paint a picture of Tesla as a scammer despite these two things being independent.

 

[ldjessee]

Scroll to the bottom of the article, but to help you out, here:

After doing more research into range estimates, he said he ultimately concluded there is nothing wrong with his car. The problem, he said, was that Tesla is overstating its performance. He believes Tesla “should be a lot more explicit about the variation in the range,” especially in very cold weather.

“I do love my Tesla,” the engineer said. “But I have just tempered my expectation of what it can do in certain conditions.”

Yes, Customer Service is hard to get right 100% of the time and maybe Tesla has not been great at this...
But this story is scrapping up scraps of complaints that are so common with ICE no one talks about it at all, just like ICE car fires... every day, but no one talks because it is expected.

Soon the variability of range due to obvious and non-obvious factors will be more commonly known.

 

[jerhenderson]

I will absolutely agree that the article is not well balanced vis a vis ICE vs EV range factors, and it's not a scientific or unbiased treatment on range issues on EVs in general.

I really don't care about all that.

I care about Tesla's reaction to customer complaints. Yep, some of em can be "fixed" with customer education on ... physics. Yes, some issues can be identified and/or ruled out via telemetry, and great for Tesla for having the ability to remote diagnose.

But there will be a subset of issues that have nothing to do with customer understanding of cars, or issues that a BMS can measure. If one of those comes up on my Tesla, I do not want to have to cut through layers of red tape to get my car physically checked on and actually fixed. If Tesla is actively stonewalling those legitimate cases to keep them from seeing the light of day, that needs to stop.

Again, I'm pro-EV. I have a 2023 Model Y, and I'm generally pretty satisfied with it so far. I have no FUD-ge to make against either. But I will call a spade a spade, and bad customer service and business practices are definitely going to get called out by yours truly.

coming from retail management, I'd have loved to been able to ignore stupid complaints that had no basis. my all favorite was the guy complaining his stainless steel dishwasher was in fact blue... then I showed him the protective wrap. that's the same people as range complaining.

 

[Crissa]

I have had service techs want to close tickets for issues that I *know* are real. One recurring problem is that I have the windows partly open for my dog (dogs like open windows for some reason and when I walk away the Tesla doesn't close all of the windows and tells me so (of course, by then I am quite some distance away and anyone that wanted access would have had it easily). It is an intermittent problem and...

And what if they fix your problem, but then it crushes someone's finger? Whose fault is it?

Everything has variability, including sensor data. This is why sensor fusion is so difficult.

-Crissa

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

And what if they fix your problem, but then it crushes someone's finger? Whose fault is it?

Everything has variability, including sensor data. This is why sensor fusion is so difficult.

-Crissa

And what if they fix your problem, but then it crushes someone's finger? Whose fault is it?

Everything has variability, including sensor data. This is why sensor fusion is so difficult.

-Crissa

the comment wasn’t about fixing the problem, it was about Tesla not listening to me for a real problem, which is what the range appointment cancellation is about.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

And what if they fix your problem, but then it crushes someone's finger? Whose fault is it?

Everything has variability, including sensor data. This is why sensor fusion is so difficult.

-Crissa

@Crissa, I am certain that they would never 'fix' something so that it violated a safety issue or a federal requirement. In fact, NHTSA just this year required Tesla to 'fix' this very issue so that the windows would open under less obstructive pressure. I suspect it was made too sensitive as I have watched it try to close and then open again when I walk away from the car in my driveway. If I try again to close the window, from my app, then sometimes it works the second time. Sometimes not. That said, and as I mentioned earlier, that is not why I posted my comment to the OP scenario.

 

[Diehard]

I have had coworkers with different comfort levels when it comes to B.S. I got to know them and adjusted my expectations for each. That is why we have customer reviews and YouTubers; to help us adjust our expectations. That is why I am not too worried about CT specs. By the time it is my turn there will be a lot of reviews.

That said if EPA does it’s job right, we don’t have to worry about all these variations as much. Although it is a bit of a different issue, it reminds me of dieselgate. The way government does emission test is like a bank manager opening the vault and letting me go in and do my own honor system withdrawal with the justification he is saving the bank ton of money by eliminating tellers. And when I grab a little more cash than I should, the manager has no accountability and it is all my fault. EPA needs to have a standard that is meaningful, useful and practical. Until then, I consider Tesla the coworker with a bit of active imagination.

Of course, I suspect after all the complaints, Tesla probably will see the value of meeting or setting the right expectations.

I am a newbie when it comes to EVs so I should be more surprised than most of you by impact of different conditions on my range but with my Lightning, I have only once been negatively surprised by my truck’s estimated range; doing 80 in winter in part of my 140 mile trip, I got 10 miles less range than gessometer initially stated. That was when neither me nor the truck had any history. My average consumption during first 5K has been exactly as advertised (2.4 mile/KWh). I do have a fairly mixed drive (highway/city). I think as long as the following facts are communicated to new EV owners; the expectations can be managed:

• Total and available battery capacity
• mi/KWh consumption at a stated standard condition. Then at 40 mph & 80 mph in summer and winter on flat road and with 1000 ft elevation gain with full load. (I wouldn’t include head wind since it can be added to speed)

You can write a book about impact of anything from tire pressure to alignment but the main thing is for people to understand city and highway efficiency is the opposite of ICE. If I had to give consumer only one number, I would give them consumption at average highway speed at 40 degrees since range is what matters the most when you are traveling and that often happens on highways. Who cares what the range is when you go grocery shopping 5 miles away.

User accessible 'service' menu has had a battery health test for over a year IIRC.

Wonder if this helps with those range test along with the new improved energy screen with 'range tips'.

I really appreciate you sharing these screens. The interface is designed much better than my Lightning in many respects. May I ask what do you see under park? Do you see a break down of Phantom drain energy ( I use that term for any energy used while vehicle is parked and unoccupied). And when you do health test, do you get only a % number or any other kinds of info like individual cell voltage? or which cells have problems?

 

[Cyberostachu]

Telemetry would detect if someone needed to turn the wheel more in one direction than another.

And to get the full range, you have to drive past 0 to shutdown. Clearly, you don't want to do that, because you could get stranded. But that's what EPA range means.

-Crissa

I've been complaining about my range. For me I've never driven full to zero. Sometimes I end up with 10 to 15% left but you can prorate the mileage. The only factor I haven't considered is the amt of reserved energy. Even if I added the reserve, I don't think my efficiency jumps from 65 to 85%.

 

[fhteagle]

I've been complaining about my range.

Complaining to Tesla? If so, what's their reaction been?

 

[scottf200]

I really appreciate you sharing these screens. The interface is designed much better than my Lightning in many respects. May I ask what do you see under park? Do you see a break down of Phantom drain energy ( I use that term for any energy used while vehicle is parked and unoccupied). And when you do health test, do you get only a % number or any other kinds of info like individual cell voltage? or which cells have problems?

You are most welcome. I have the previous version of these screens in my 'legacy' 2017 TMX. I have friends and a kid with this newer version.

AFAIK, you only get a % number. For phantom drain, I would guess it would go under other and battery conditions (assuming that is temp maint up or down). If you don't drive your vehicle, then you can just see how much energy gets put in your vehicle overnight and account for the AC->DC loss %.

I use a CANbus BT OBDII adapter and software ScanMyTesla (URL) to look at cell info.

I use TeslaFI.COM and it tries to track phantom drain. It does track battery health compared to similar vehicles (model/year/mileage) to see how you compare. If I get a CT, then I will immediately put it on TeslaFI. My kid has their 3 & Y in their 'TeslaFI Fleet'.

My 2017 X is below via TeslaFI.COM.

 

[Crissa]

the comment wasn’t about fixing the problem, it was about Tesla not listening to me for a real problem, which is what the range appointment cancellation is about.

@Crissa, I am certain that they would never 'fix' something so that it violated a safety issue or a federal requirement. In fact, NHTSA just this year required ...

I think Jhodgesatmb answers his own question right there.

What is Tesla supposed to do? If the window sensors are operating in the correct (and safe) manner, there still will be some failure rate. Might be a one in a million fluke, and there's logs.

I'm not sure what they're supposed to do here, if they can't find the error in the logs or replicate the issue.

What this really is, is a failure of how Tesla (and pretty much all manufacturers today) don't reveal these logs except under legal duress. And they don't reveal their formula for things like battery capacity, either.

I've been complaining about my range. For me I've never driven full to zero. Sometimes I end up with 10 to 15% left but you can prorate the mileage. The only factor I haven't considered is the amt of reserved energy. Even if I added the reserve, I don't think my efficiency jumps from 65 to 85%.

Yes, and they can tell what speed you've been driving at, what the weather conditions are, how you pressed the accelerator, and what the battery voltages are.

They can tell if you're just a lead foot or not.

Are they supposed to tell you that you're a lead foot to your face? Sounds like a position I wouldn't want to put my employees in.

-Crissa

 

[Cyberostachu]

Complaining to Tesla? If so, what's their reaction been?

They said it's my driving habit on my first visit with the service managers. On my 2nd, 3rd and 4th visits, I adjusted my driving habit. Still the same result. I told them if I bought the car because it goes 4.2 seconds to 60 mph, why would I drive it 9 sec to 60 mph? Also, if it's rated 135 mph, why would I drive 65 mph max in a highway with 75 mph speed limit? They haven't satisfied or resolved my problem and my car is 2.5 years old.
Hope someone smarter than their managers reads this and help me solve this problem. I called a local lawyers office and asked them if we can sue tesla for not doing anything with my problem, they didn't call back. They are afraid tesla is so big with a brigade of lawyers.
I give up.

 

[fhteagle]

They said it's my driving habit on my first visit with the service managers. On my 2nd, 3rd and 4th visits, I adjusted my driving habit.

But you haven't been kept out of the service center at all. That's what matters most to me.

It is an intermittent problem and appears to be related to an over-sensitive sensor that detects an obstacle and halts the window closing.

We had a similar issue on delivery with the model Y. Took them three tries to fix, two before signing for the car and one the day after (fortunately we already planned to not drive away from the service center area until the next day). They ended up taking off the entire interior door trim and manually re-seating a piece of trim or seal that was catching and tripping the force sensor. It's worked perfectly for 6 months since. Wonder if they need to go that far for yours?

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