Offroad Video By Normal Guy

[cvalue13]

Or as you, "not a Tesla owner", don't seem to understand,

the only thing more tiring than this claptrap about “if you don’t own a Tesla you couldn’t possibly understand” is the hypocracy it betrays

if I need to sit down because I don’t own a Tesla, you need to sit down because you over and over again display that you understand neither trucks generally nor BEV trucks specifically


pick your poison, just at least be intellectually consistent

I am not apologetic, I'm a realist. My first Tesla didn't have the ability to turn the rear seat heaters on, it came in a release or two later. Not a big deal.

again, another - and basically only - regurgitated claptrap borne of intellectual dishonesty

maybe the first time you uttered it, it was innocent ignorance

but it’s since been explained to you that the only reason you got “surprise” heated seats is because Tesla gave up on trying to charge people for hardware they built into the vehicles

Or is your suggestion here “don’t worry, it’s just Tesla’s way that they built the CT to be as offroad capable as they say, they’ve just disabled that hardware and if you wait long enough and they can’t charge you for it separately, they’ll eventually turn it on for free.

It's pretty much EXACTLY what Tesla did with Track Mode. They heard the input, then studied and understood the requirements, and they came out with an industry leading solution. Was it that way when the car shipped? No.

GREAT example.

Want to walk people through “how Resla does it” when it came to the Plaid and the track package?

Because I’ll refresh your memory:

Tesla: “the Plaid is the best sports car”

People: “we just tried it on a track, and the thing literally melts to pieces”

Tesla: “give me a minute here … there we are, just $20,000 more dollars and it’s just as we told you - the best sports car”



Give me a break.

Yes, whether we own a Tesla or not, many of us are familiar with “the Tesla way.”

It’s exactly “the Tesla way” that we’re here discussing, with some valid critiques.

The only difference with you, is that you’ve decided Tesla is right and good even when “the Tesla way” is not so politely ask you to drop pant and touch your toes.

Put differently: the problem is you keep thinking *others* don’t understand how “good” that is.

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[Woodrick]

the only thing more tiring than this claptrap about “if you don’t own a Tesla you couldn’t possibly understand” is the hypocracy it betrays

if I need to sit down because I don’t own a Tesla, you need to sit down because you over and over again display that you understand neither trucks generally nor BEV trucks specifically
.

Okay, so maybe it isn't that you don't have a Tesla, maybe it is just because you won't listen to what other Tesla owners keep telling you.

This thread will become a moot point.

 

[cvalue13]

Okay, so maybe it isn't that you don't have a Tesla, maybe it is just because you won't listen to what other Tesla owners keep telling you.

This thread will become a moot point.

oh no, I'm listening - I'm just hearing obviously irrelevant claptrap

that this thread "will become a moot point" is the irrelevant claptrap



because it's pretty obvious to everyone that doesn't have their pants down that the point of this thread, exactly, is: presently, there is an un-moot point, so how/when will Tesla go about solving for it - and what will be the resulting trade-offs


to which conversation, you just keep repeating, "but they will! but they will!"

great contribution

 

[jookyone]

People: “we just tried it on a track, and the thing literally melts to pieces”

Tesla: “give me a minute here … there we are, just $20,000 more dollars and it’s just as we told you - the best sports car”

Neither of these things happened. Especially invalid to present patterns that occurred during COVID as normal operations. Ain't nobody sh!#in on chickens for the price of eggs the last 4 years.

Tesla makes claims, they sell said product way earlier than those claims can often be fulfilled, and people are willing to buy the product at a huge mark up in order to be one of the first to experience said claims when/if they do arrive. Historically these claims have been hit or miss (robo taxis, battery swapping, battery density, the most massive failure being FSD), but the next shiny thing is always ahead, and they don't look back for better or worse. They fund innovation thru hype, features, and consumer beta testing and that is the Tesla way. Downstream Teslas are becoming amazing used cars, and the fans like myself will continue to overpay for promised features as early adopters because we can and hope they arrive before our attention turns to the next new thing.

I'm not sure what argument you are making here. Either buy them or don't. If you think it's a bunch of claptrapping by fans of the vehicles and they never live up to whatever expectations they promise, why even bother to be here especially as an alleged non-Tesla owner? Tesla rarely listens to anyone. Pants down? Don't understand that one either, I don't think anyone misunderstands Tesla, in the same way nobody misunderstands fast food isn't healthy but continues to eat it.

PS. I love fast food and hope to die an early death from it and I've never been accused of having a practical relationship with Tesla. They are the worst car company I've ever dated, and I keep coming back because I can't get a product like theirs anywhere else.

 

[cvalue13]

let me initially set aside the misunderstanding in your response, to quickly set aside soemthing that is not a missunderstanding

Neither of these things happened.

feel free to elaborate

because as brief and pithy as my comment was constructed, both things did actually happen

the Model S plaid was notorious for both (a) having undersized brakes to begin with, and (b) those brakes to experience significant and ultimately disabling fade

i'll leave you some starting breadcrumbs:

"It's able to go from 0-60 mph in just 98 feet, while the reverse, 60-0 mph, takes 104 feet. That begs two questions: Is the Tesla Model S under-braked for road driving or track driving (or both)? And how in the world is it possible that the acceleration is stronger than the brakes...The Tesla Model S Plaid accelerates quicker than its brakes, which is uncommon among production cars."​

​

- Jason Fenske (2021) from Engineering Explained​

​

""Please, don't bring it to a track."​

​

- Throttle House (2021), from video titled "Tesla Model S Plaid Not Made For Track Driving"​

​

"But, trust us, you don't want to do 200 mph in this car. Even 162 mph was terrifying, wandering and nervous to the point that we were concerned about our ability to shepherd it between lane lines.... Between the flappability at high speeds and the iffy brakes, our helmets are way off to former FIA GT racing driver Andreas Simonsen, who piloted the Plaid to what must have been a harrowing 7:35 Nürburgring lap. "​

​

- C&D (2021)​

​

​

And because I know that any reference of C&D, no matter how based and rational, brings the fanboi calls of "big media!!", etc., let's just let it rest that plenty of experienced drivers were in wide agreement:

"I have been a Porsche chief driving instructor on and off for twenty five years.... [The Plaid is] a car that is too heavy for it's speed. Tires and brakes are no match for the power and weight." - TMC member​

"Was doing some fast driving in the twisties for less than two minutes. Very disappointed with the brakes on this car. No way they could keep up with a pack of sports cars on a spirited Sunday drive. The Plaid is a WHOLE different animal than a 3. Trust me. I was a BMW driving instructor for a few years." - TMC member​

​

"Sadly there has been no shortage of brake failure occurring with the new Tesla Model S Plaid. It’s unfortunate and scary – both for those who can potentially get themselves into trouble, and because if this continues, some kind of legislation could come into place restricting the performance level of new cars. So, rather than equipping every car with brakes that can handle track duty, Tesla has taken the less expensive route of offering brakes that are for road use only, and put the onus on the end-users to upgrade their brakes if they are putting them through racetrack level abuse." -www.mountainpassperformance.com​

​

​

Not at all to suggest the above is a complete discussion, nor a complete list of all the historicals, but only that it suffices to explain why (my emphasis below)...

Tesla launches new Model S Plaid track package with incredible top speed (Elektrek May 2023)​

​

Tesla is launching of a new Model S Plaid track package that will finally enable the originally promised incredible top speed.​

​

When Tesla first announced the Model S Plaid, its new top-performance flagship electric vehicle, the automaker promised a top speed of 200 mph (322 km/h). However, when it was first delivered last year, the vehicle “only” featured a top speed of 163 mph (262 km/h).​

​

Last year, Tesla released a new “Track Mode” for the Model S Plaid that pushed the top speed to 175 mph (282 km/h).​

​

It appeared that the brakes were the limiting factor. Tesla didn’t want to unlock higher top speeds without the electric supercar having bigger brakes that would be able to slow it down after achieving this new top speed.​

Now, Tesla is teasing a broader “Model S Plaid track package” with the originally announced top speed.​

​

And when that full kit was released, to it was a $20,000 package of brake and wheel/tire upgrades (a person could pay $15K if they'd previously bought the relevant wheel/tire upgrades).







So again, while my prior comment was both breif and pithy, end of the day, both things did happen: the Plaid was released with undersized brakes, which under track pressure would boil and fade, AND Tesla still sold the Plaid on the pitch of a 200mph capability which - ultimately - they didn't release without it accompanying a $20K upgrade to the vehicle people purchased thinking it already would safely do 200mph (or handle track duty).

please, go ahead and take issue with the accuracy at the margins here, as no doubt my brevity allows for any number of non-material "gotchas"

but it's another thing to suggest that

Neither of these things happened.

as for the rest of your message, i think you're misunderstanding the limited extent of the comment - and the reasons for which those comments were made

or as you put it:

I'm not sure what argument you are making here.

agreed

​

 

[jookyone]

the Plaid was released with undersized brakes

This didn't happen and neither did the other two. A "stock" Plaid with "stock" brakes accomplished track feats without melting brakes. Definitely disingenuous for Tesla to say you can go 200mph (speed limited without Track Package) but it was a liability thing, not because it couldn't do 200mph. No car company guarantees a stopping distance, only bragging about acceleration times.

From the current 2024 Porsche 911 website "Performance" section:

While Tesla's brakes were smaller than a comparable Taycan Turbo S (Taycan weighs 300lbs more and has larger brakes 16.5" vs 15") the Plaid managed to stop in 104ft vs 103ft for the Porsche.
Since you mentioned engineering explained (a channel I love, he's in CO), you can view his whole explanation in this video here:


He points out that the brakes, clearly are capable, as the default non-Track Package Model S Plaid beat the Taycan on Nurburgring, , and then beat it again soundly with the Track Package after Porsche made some adjustments to beat the "stock" Plaid. He also explains that naysayers complained or pointed out driving techniques observed, either to save the brakes or battery might have been employed, but that's the difference between a professional driver and some dumbass at an open track day riding the brakes. User error. Brakes fade on every car where an inexperienced driver is involved and rides the brakes. Are there companies that build brake systems for inexperienced drivers to ride the brakes with impunity? Absolutely, BMW and Porsche to name the top tier and all the TMC members in the forums can bitch about it and blame their driving habits for... I don't know what the TMC Cup Championship?
Numbers don't lie. Tit for tat, measurable records between comparable vehicles with experienced drivers on a track, have Tesla in the lead in most contests. It's the only relevant measure.

I do agree we are arguing about who knows what, but science explains the truth and I hate misinformation. Anecdotal TMC forum members, "experienced BMW instructors" (appeal to authority logical fallacy), and a performance website selling brakes for the track to quote you and them "for those who can potentially get themselves into trouble" have no credibility. Their opinions and experiences literally don't matter.

 

[cvalue13]

I do agree we are arguing about who knows what, but science explains the truth and I hate misinformation. Anecdotal TMC forum members, "experienced BMW instructors" (appeal to authority logical fallacy), and a performance website selling brakes for the track to quote you and them "for those who can potentially get themselves into trouble" have no credibility. Their opinions and experiences literally don't matter.

said this for a reason:

please, go ahead and take issue with the accuracy at the margins here, as no doubt my brevity allows for any number of non-material "gotchas"

Since you pulled out categories of fallacies (‘appeal to authority’), I’ll respond in kind: argumentum ad hominem


Noting you attacked only the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making the statement rather than attacking the substance of the statement’s themselves

to wit:

This didn't happen and neither did the other two.

despite the length of your post, I still don’t see you backing this up

closest you get is this:

Numbers don't lie. Tit for tat, measurable records between comparable vehicles with experienced drivers on a track, have Tesla in the lead in most contests. It's the only relevant measure.

which is patently incorrect. Numbers *do* lie in this respect, and are not the only relevant measure.

because you conveniently fail to recognize the importance of unit repeatability, esp where vehicles are concerned.

Because, just as a hypothetical example, the following two things are very different:

​

“the car can go 200mph … once”​

vs​

“the car can go 200mph, day after day”​

​

Getting to the moon may be impressive. Getting back is the meaningful part.

take as hominem exception if you’d like, to the handful of random quips I collected in 5 minutes. But you’ve not addressed the substance of their comments, except to suggest that the only thing that matters is who got to the moon first (regardless of who got back).



Getting back to the relevance of this Plaid discussion in this thread: what you’ve done in your response, in effect, is analogous to saying:

“a more experienced offroad driver could have gotten up that hill, if they knew X, Y, Z, offroad techniques… and getting up the hill is all that matters (even if the CT brakes 6 critical components)” etc etc

which to me sound like platitudes, unless you’re taking my comments for something more than they are

This all began by someone suggesting, essentially, “relax, guys, Tesla always makes good on their marketing promises… they’ll fix it in the future.”

my original, brief, pithy, response was directed to the following limited notion:

basically, will Tesla “fix” the CT off-roading limitations the same way they “fixed” the speed and performance marketing of the Plaid?

because despite the length of your post, the ad hominem, etc., here’s the uncontroversial and indisputable fact:

Tesla offered the $20K track upgrade package.

it’s on you to have a better argument for the suggestion that Tesla *did not* do so in order to address well known performance limitations of the Plaid.

pretty clear why they did it: if you’re marketing to the general public a performance vehicle with X, Y, Z, capabilities, it requires a certain level of general consumer operation and repeatability.

And in the past, Tesla’s “fixed” that by either (a) future vehicle iterations, or (b) charging for further upgrades.

Which is exactly to the point of the concerns here, of people wondering what they are spending $100-$120K on for *this* iteration of the CT at *this* price.

 

[jookyone]

I feel like I'm battling in court. But alright. argumentum ad hominem... nope on this one too.

Noting you attacked only the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making the statement rather than attacking the substance of the statement’s themselves

I posted a link to a website, a direct link to the video you referenced and quoted out of context that doesn't actually support your argument, a detailed assessment of a statement you presented as evidence (the statements by the people selling brakes and the audience they are targeting), and offered measurable real world examples (Nurburgring, brake performance numbers, etc). I did *also* not *rather* attack anecdotal experiences of non-experts (TMC members, brake vendors, etc) that had been presented as evidence, but not you (unless you consider yourself among them). I don't know what a fallacy of quoting a fallacy is, but you've done that.

With regard to the truck and not our entertaining debate (to me, I like debate)...

basically, will Tesla “fix” the CT off-roading limitations the same way they “fixed” the speed and performance marketing of the Plaid?

I agree, this is the root of our debate and one to which we don't have an answer. I've presented reasons this could and could not be true (history of FSD, delivery of Track Package). The other forum member believes yes. I believe yes. I ordered. I don't know if you ordered, reserved, or just here for fun and informational purposes (also valuable). I guess we all have to wait for the chips to fall.

Which is exactly to the point of the concerns here, of people wondering what they are spending $100-$120K on for *this* iteration of the CT at *this* price.

For the people that have ordered and taken delivery on this forum, I don't think there are concerns. I haven't seen an "awe sh#t why did I do this" post or video, even this guy whose Cybertruck allegedly died on the road, and has still done nothing but extoll the vehicle. The trucks don't even have FSD, all the accessories of the FS version, and some don't even have hubcaps! But to date, these purchasers, are mostly Tesla owners and their opinions carry more weight than those that haven't or don't own one. If you have or do, and still can't see value in the CT today at this price point, then wait for a lower price point and the features you want. But you will find resistance trying to make the argument that your perceived value carries more weight than anyone who ordered this truck today at this price with all its missing features and are still fans of the company. Nobody forcing anyone to buy from what I've read. People on the fence should make a decision to order... or don't, at least I have something to do in the evenings.

 

[jookyone]

if you’re marketing to the general public a performance vehicle with X, Y, Z, capabilities, it requires a certain level of general consumer operation and repeatability.

Also not true, unless you consider crashing a car promising to be the best track car repeatable:
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=d1b86f06081d3a94&q=porsche+911+gt3+wrecks&tbm=isch&source=lnms

 

[CyberGus]

Ensure you do not conflate a "Track Package" of hardware upgrades with the "Track Mode" software feature:

"Track Mode, available only on Performance Model 3 vehicles, is designed to modify the stability control, traction control, regenerative braking, and cooling systems to increase performance and handling while driving on closed circuit courses. Track Mode improves cornering ability by intelligently using the motors, and regenerative and traditional braking systems. When enabled, the cooling system runs at an increased level during and after aggressive driving sessions to allow your vehicle’s systems to withstand the surplus heat."

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/model3/en_us/GUID-92CA3DCA-EDA3-4243-861E-2C770F5506FD.html

 

[BoiseCT]

This is either lockers, software or both.

Yeah, I agree. What I don't get is why the lockers aren't enabled. This should be a simple software feature. It makes me concerned that the current lockers are deficient somehow and that they are waiting for updated parts and a recall prior to taking this live. Tesla (Elon) has talked about other things coming (improvements to 4WS, etc.), but no mention from anyone on this.

 

[Woodrick]

People: “we just tried it on a track, and the thing literally melts to pieces”

Show me an example of the car melting to pieces, pictures please.

despite the length of your post, I still don’t see you backing this up

Wow! Now this is the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[BoiseCT]

what does “offroad” mode do, if not make it send power to all 4 wheels?

if its true that the other 3 tires were in contact, then I still don’t get pointing to lockers.

would lockers have helped? Maybe

should the truck NEED lockers for this scenario? No.

Subaru didn’t

This is an AWD dual motor truck. So, there is a differential powered by a single motor at each axle. When one of the two tires on a differential loses traction (like when its in the air) it starts to spin faster than the other side, taking power from the wheel with traction. Traction control can compensate for this by applying the brake to the free spinning wheel, and sending power back to the wheel with traction, but there are limits when a truck is this heavy and the the motor has this much torque relative to the brakes. A locking differential locks the two axles together such that traction control is not required to accomplish this. It doesn't matter if one tire out of the pair loses traction since they are driven together with the differential locked out.

Regarding the Subaru: a lighter vehicle always has an advantage in a situation like this, and the torque applied by the brakes during torque vectoring to hold a wheel still is probably better in proportion to the torque supplied by the motor. Moving a 7000 lb truck up a hill is harder than a 3500 lb car.

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