Offroad Video By Normal Guy

[Truckhaven]

As each week passes I’m more and more underwhelmed by the CT. The suspensions has pitiful flex for anything more than dirt fire roads. About the only hope I have for this vehicle is V2 and moving these tech/manufacturing advancements to future vehicles. Tesla makes some of the best on road vehicles. Maybe they should stick to pavement and tracks. When the cheaper version comes out I’d reconsider for the CT my daily driver/mall crawler.

Sponsored

 

[SentinelOne]

"The suspensions has pitiful flex for anything more than dirt fire roads." If Rock Crawl Mode has cross linked airbags and you get manual swaybar disconnects then this should be an incorrect statement....fingers crossed. Unplugged already sells the disconnects - we just need someone that knows how to offload to buy some of those (relatively cheap) and go test with disconnected + rock crawl mode - and see how the articulation works - would be a good indication to see what we have to work with, if rock crawl mode does anything at this point or needs a sw update.

So basically really hoping you are wrong! ;-)

 

[cvalue13]

Show me an example of the car melting to pieces, pictures please.

damn, score one for you!

*checks notes*

ah, I see now: turns out no points awarded for “gotchas” based on interpreting hyperbole as literal.

*checks notes*

actually, results in a DQ

Wow! Now this is the pot calling the kettle black.

You misheard: this pot was calling the kettle empty

 

[cvalue13]

This is an AWD dual motor truck. So, there is a differential powered by a single motor at each axle. When one of the two tires on a differential loses traction (like when its in the air) it starts to spin faster than the other side, taking power from the wheel with traction. Traction control can compensate for this by applying the brake to the free spinning wheel, and sending power back to the wheel with traction, but there are limits when a truck is this heavy and the the motor has this much torque relative to the brakes. A locking differential locks the two axles together such that traction control is not required to accomplish this. It doesn't matter if one tire out of the pair loses traction since they are driven together with the differential locked out.

Regarding the Subaru: a lighter vehicle always has an advantage in a situation like this, and the torque applied by the brakes during torque vectoring to hold a wheel still is probably better in proportion to the torque supplied by the motor. Moving a 7000 lb truck up a hill is harder than a 3500 lb car.

I appreciate you reciting Offroad 101

the point of this thread, though, is whether Tesla engineers (or its fanbois) have ever read offroad 101

you know, so that they might anticipate these basics, and address them, before seemingly posturing the CT as being the killer of all other BEV trucks


put differently (not that @JBee hasn’t already done a better job of this but):

(1) Largest offroad drawback of independent suspension setup is articulation - but it’s basically necessary for any BEV truck, so you’re stuck with it

(2) Based on (1), this puts LOTS more pressure on the traction control system so that torque gets sent to the wheels with grip

(3) but with electric and independent motors, it’s actually a hard engineering problem to figure out what the vehicle reference speed is to result in an effective traction control system

(4) then you’ve got the weight of the truck, which weight both further places importance on traction control AND makes it more difficult to control traction/friction

(5) then you’ve got unfavorable geometry of a long wheelbase truck like the CT

(6) so because of (5), you then add variable ride height via suspension, which partially solves for one thing but introduces 6 new challenges …


So then, to level-set: all the above is painfully obvious as well as predictable, including to Tesla’s engineers

Can we therefore stop re-describing why the CT has problems in this situation?

Because the relevant question isn’t why it’s having problems.

The relevant question is why weren’t these problems better addressed, if Tesla was to posture the CT as being, eg, superior to ICE trucks for offroading

Rogan: Doesn't it also, does it still do this thing where the ride height, range, and there's also no regular drive train.​

Musk: So there's no axles that are the impediment to going over rocks and things like that. Yeah, normally in other vehicles, a gasoline or diesel vehicle, you've got the differential, which hangs down low between the rear wheels. So you're like, look under a truck, there's almost always a differential there that's hanging down pretty low. So if you hit the diff on a rock, you'll break it. Yeah. There's no, at the bottom of the cyber truck, it's completely flat and has the best clear height of any vehicle.”​

The relevant discussion here isn’t “why did the Subaru do better, given the obvious challenges”

It’s “why weren’t these obvious challenges addressed better, to the point that the Subaru so clearly evidences that the obvious challenges weren’t addressed”

And if one more person says “lockers” blah blah blah

lockers will help. Lockers alone don’t address all of (1)-(6) above

as evidenced by there already being aftermarket, simple, obvious, solutions to remaining challenges left - regardless of lockers

 

[cvalue13]

With regard to the truck and not our entertaining debate (to me, I like debate)...

Same, no worries here

I posted a link to a website, a direct link to the video you referenced and quoted out of context that doesn't actually support your argument,

The video says as much and as little as I ever intended to suggest that it did.

4:15 in the video: "for the track, would I say that these are phenomenal track brakes? No, I definitely wouldn't say they are. You can find smaller, lighter, slower, cars that are using much larger brakes on them. The big problem with the Model S Plaid brakes is that it has so much power, right ... So, under braked for the track? Yeah, I would probably say so. That being said, I don't think this is a track car. So if you are going to take it to the track, it is worth upgrading the brakes"​

Everything else you state about the Engineering Explained video is either intentionally or unintentionally missing this core, initial, conclusion he reaches - which is the only conclusion relevant to the discussion we had.

Everything else he says, is basically explaining how or why and when under OTHER conditions/assumptions the Plaid seems fine.

Because remember, what were were discussing here, is the broad notion that Tesla touts a vehicle broadly regarding being a sports car, or an off roading vehicle, in ways that intentionally suggest it is capable of things that later it turns out to not be capable of.

Case in point: all this BS claptrap around the Cybertruck having the performance of a "sports car." Pitting it against the slowest possible 911 available, and 'racing' it in a straight-line drag, while towing, etc.

Never once does Tesla mention that the Cybertruck, in ANY other "sports car" relevant behavior, capable of being a "sports car."

Even that slowest possible 911 would absolutely obliterate a CT on a twisty road, a track, OR IN ITS ABILITY TO STOP (because the CT's brakes are also under-developed)

I wont go on and on, but at the end of the day:

Your responses are mostly just pregnant with the 'reality distortion field' of Musk/Tesla in this respect.

I do not fault Tesla for it's marketing.

I do, however, find it important to play my part of that game - which is to try and sort through what is marketing claptrap (fair on them) and identify where the limits of the claims exist.



Regarding the Plaid brakes and track performance, i feel no need to further dig up the long existing history and evidence of the fact that the Plaid brakes and suspension were wildy under-prepared for handling the types of "sports car" uses Tesla was touting.

Point to one-off ad hominem attacks of a particular (and random) example, all you like, but at the end of the day what is most glaring - again - is your avoidance of the following:

There is a reason Tesla eventually offered the track pack upgrade, and prior to that never ungoverned-it's top speed.

And, in short, the reason Tesla did that? Because your ad hominem critiques are out of place.


The reality distortion field, is exactly this tendency for Tesla fans to retreat into having NOTHING left but "main stream media," "big oil propaganda," "they sell brakes," "being a 25 year professional driving instructor means nothing," etc.

Which must be why Tesla governed the Plaid and released a $20K "fix"

EDIT TO ADD:

For those interested, this Throttle House video (in which they 'interview' Engineering Explained), does a good job of instantiating and reflecting the broadly held view regarding the Plaid when it comes to track and track-like performance. I say that, knowing that folks will still - somehow - try and suggest that the guys at Throttle House are somehow biased against Tesla, but that to me would seem so wildy disingenuous that anyone reasonable could see through that maneuver.

They in this video basically go on and on about how Tesla is the best thing since sliced bread:



But they ALSO say:

"On the road, usability, I got no issues with this car. On the track, though. It's ah. What's the word? Dangerous. Not dangerous in a cool way. Dangerously in the way that it's dangerously under-braked. Worse brakes than a Hellcat Redeye with more power. Really Really not like ... the braking zone for the straight-away here is about 15-20 car lengths earlier than any other car I've driven [here]... It's 1,000hp and the brakes of a Camry."

From there he goes on to talk about the power steering at speed/slippage, and how since it hasn't been "fixed" with track mode yet, he's stuck with the problems of Tesla's traction control.

"So, conclusions. This car if you buy it and start to really ripi it on on and off ramps or even think about taking it to the track, it completely falls down in a way a big heavy German sedan would not. The Germans would make sure that a car can do all of these things. ... This is a very, very, flawed but very fun car. Please don't take it to a track."

The go on to do only a single hot lap, "because the brakes were dangerously overheated after the first lap."



And if for some reason you find exception to the Throttle House guys, it can be backfilled with dozens of other such accounts.

But perhaps we only need, instead, to again hold up Tesla's $20K "fix" and its governed speed.

 

[Truckhaven]

"The suspensions has pitiful flex for anything more than dirt fire roads." If Rock Crawl Mode has cross linked airbags and you get manual swaybar disconnects then this should be an incorrect statement....fingers crossed. Unplugged already sells the disconnects - we just need someone that knows how to offload to buy some of those (relatively cheap) and go test with disconnected + rock crawl mode - and see how the articulation works - would be a good indication to see what we have to work with, if rock crawl mode does anything at this point or needs a sw update.

So basically really hoping you are wrong! ;-)

I hope I’m wrong too! I’ve been sitting around the campfires for the past few years boasting about the CT and now my friends are all razzing me asking me when Elon will release the Cyber winch and tow strap! Lol

 

[JBee]

A bit uncertain on the language if it means connecting front right and left or one side front to rear, first option is more likely

Although I agree with your take, I think it's simply, how many people will take if off road to the point it requires a sway bar disconnect? The answer is probably a tiny tiny portion of buyers, a lot of it's features are geared to what the majority need, not solving every need a small group of people would want

For those that want it, they can buy already

https://unpluggedperformance.com/pr...ont-rear-sway-bar-quick-disconnect-end-links/

There are different ways to do the airbag cross link.

It would be a waste if it where only passive though, because they have individual suspension height sensors on each wheel already, and a active system for off road could go as far as analysing the terrain using FSD, and then predict which suspension height per wheel would a) give the safest stability against roll-over b) best distribution of mass per wheel for best traction whilst c) offering the best clearance and approach/departure/ramp angles and d) within reason of making it comfortable for the terrain for passengers.

With the passive KDSS setup above, it actually helps compress the airsprings by forcing torsion of the axles on articulation. This means more mass is put on at least a third wheel, if not all four if within articulation range. The critical thing here though is that it also inhibits the leaning of the vehicle when on a sidslope as well.

If you had a left to right only crosslink per axle you would simply roll over when driving sideways accross a slope. If you have a front to rear, per side crossing, acceleration would cause it to pitch back to the stops up a hill, and braking to the front stops down a hill. Both of these are undesirable and unsafe.

Hence, if you want to avoid having to disconnect the sway bar and not use a KDSS system at all, you must then use an active airbag setup, that averages wheel travel by periodically deflating the compressed air spring into the uncompressed ones. This function then needs to switch off and normalise each airbag pressure over non-crawling speeds and articulation to ensure some level of suspension. Primarily, the control method would be to ensure that the average suspension height of the front or rear airbags are the same.

In the case of a terrain adaptive version as described above, you could then tilt however necessary to climb or clear obstacles.

You could probably even do some path optimisation using the rear steering, so that it follows the front track, and even use the guides on the front camera to suggest the most ideal path to attack the terrain, so the active suspension can adapt with those priorities described above.

As for "if" there are customers that require this, I'd have to disagree. There are plenty of Landcruisers, Land Rovers, Range Rovers, Touregs, Porsches, Mercedes and BMWs that have this as standard kit, of which many are cheaper than a CT.

In fact I was fully expecting that the CT would come with something like the e-active setup on a Mercedes GLE, which also does realtime predictive damping and springrate to level out bumps at highway speeds



But the point remains, that Tesla CT engineers can't fix the swaybar problem via software, it requires a hardware fix, it's purely mechanical and has no software in the loop.

The airbag suspension "might" have the crosslink hardware built in, but it seemingly still struggles with the air compressor to provide air fast enough to even lift it to off-road or extract mode, despite the huge reservoir tank. For active air suspension you need decent pressure and flow...which in turn uses more power, costs more money, and if you go big enough it needs a dryer, filter etc. Its potentially why they undersized the compressor to "just" do the airbags, and not even offer the ability to inflate tyres etc.

If it was me I'd have gone for the KDSS, thrown even larger sway bars at it, making it even better onroard, for corners and towing, and getting rid of the sway bar problem completely offroad, plus anti roll for on sideslope, all for the price of two small hydraulic rams, and at each end, and two hydraulic lines between them.

And then active air suspension with crosslink, especially because they already have the height and pressure measuring built in along with the valves and compressor etc. The crosslink manifold and one or two extra solenoids is meaningless cost wise, as is the cost of a few extra ECU IO to control it, let alone the firmware.

Anyway, hopefully they get to it, and employ a couple of extra guys so they can finally roll these software improvements out. This is not rocket science or FSD, and has been around for decades, you can literally get it off the shelf from a supplier, and there's even DIYers that do it. For Tesla it should be a walk in the park...

PS I think those sway bar disconnects from unplugged are probably the only real products I'd ever consider buying from them. All the rest seem to make the CT a worse vehicle.

 

[4xeTampa]

Thanks for the video! I enjoy off roading and do it often. After seeing the CT not being able to pass the little incline that a Subaru didn’t have issues with, that saved me a lot of money. I had thought about selling my 4xe Rubicon and getting the CT but not anymore. I’ll buy another Power Wagon instead.

 

[Crissa]

Thanks for the video! I enjoy off roading and do it often. After seeing the CT not being able to pass the little incline that a Subaru didn’t have issues with, that saved me a lot of money. I had thought about selling my 4xe Rubicon and getting the CT but not anymore. I’ll buy another Power Wagon instead.

Vehicles of different sizes are going to have different experiences passing different obstacles.

And in your photo, you might be able to pass through 99 times but the hundreth time you hit a deeper mud pocket or a small boulder under water that's been uncovered and gets thrown into your suspension.

It's what happens when you go offroad. Obstacles are rolling the dice.

-Crissa

 

[4xeTampa]

Vehicles of different sizes are going to have different experiences passing different obstacles.

And in your photo, you might be able to pass through 99 times but the hundreth time you hit a deeper mud pocket or a small boulder under water that's been uncovered and gets thrown into your suspension.

It's what happens when you go offroad. Obstacles are rolling the dice.

-Crissa

I’ve been off roading for over 20 years with multiple types of vehicles. The CT is clearly not a off road capable vehicle. If you don’t off road then it’s ok but the CT doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I like knowing that my vehicle can get me home.

 

[Woodrick]

I’ve been off roading for over 20 years with multiple types of vehicles. The CT is clearly not a off road capable vehicle. If you don’t off road then it’s ok but the CT doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I like knowing that my vehicle can get me home.

Evidently your requirements for off-road exceeds that of most every one else's.

Off-road generally means not on pavement. It doesn't mean technical challenges.

 

[Crissa]

Off-road generally means not on pavement. It doesn't mean technical challenges.

And it can clearly do technical challenges. And there would be, of course, some it could do that an old-style jeep couldn't, because of its long wheelbase or heavier weight.

Every 'technical' challenge is technical because there are different qualities needed to pass it. And there isn't a set 'better' so much as 'different'.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

Evidently your requirements for off-road exceeds that of most every one else's.

Exactly! These kind of people crack me up.

In stock form, the Cybertruck will exceed the off-road capabilities of over 99% of all registered vehicles. Sure, no one vehicle can do it all, but any vehicle that exceeds the Cybertrucks off-road capabilities will be much worse on road.

Tesla aimed for the sweet spot and hit it out of the park. The people who are disappointed in the Cybertruck's off-road abilities had no clue what the Cybertruck was supposed to be to begin with. And that's before Tesla activates the locking differentials, those were not even disclosed until relatively recently. Just wait until those are turned on later this year!

 

[Stuck4ger]

The Cybertruck is a 6600 lb vehicle with a long wheel base and sporting road efficient "all-terrain tires." What do people expect???

I guess people were expecting the Cybertruck to be the following $50,000 to be happy. One of the best off-roading vehicles ever made, 0 to 60 in 3 seconds, 500 mile range, efficiency of 3 mi/kWh, be able to tow 400 miles non-stop, and have an 8 foot bed. Even if all those were true at $50,000, people here would still complain.

You left off “seats 6 and fits in a one car garage”

 

[Speedr]

I’ve been off roading for over 20 years with multiple types of vehicles. The CT is clearly not a off road capable vehicle. If you don’t off road then it’s ok but the CT doesn’t fit my lifestyle. I like knowing that my vehicle can get me home.

I think I'll wait for the locking differentials and different tires to determine the Cybertruck's off-road capability...

Sponsored