The Exoskeleton

[FullyGrounded]

On reparability and crashes there's one thing that has been missed here.

Although the CT battery pack is structural and forms part of the passenger safety cell and will improve that considerably, I think it will be highly unlikely that damage to the structural battery pack can be repaired after even a moderate to low side impact and will result in a write-off, even if the frame and rest of the vehicle might not be that damaged. The battery pack is still the most expensive single component, so it might force the assessors hand either way.

Absolutely, the battery pack is of huge concern from many angles. However, my primary concern with this thread is how much of an impact is going to total this tough as nails truck. Many of us are buying this as a final vehicle in our lives. Is that even feasible?

If it has designed failure points, is this best? If it doesn't have failure points, could this still be a worthy truck in a crash - into a pole, from the side, rollover, head-on, etc. So much to consider, and a lot around here is often at best, educated guesses,. We truly need Elon to come forth with mass info. We deserve it. I think we all would love to learn more facts about this truck that we all have reservations for.

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[JBee]

Absolutely, the battery pack is of huge concern from many angles. However, my primary concern with this thread is how much of an impact is going to total this tough as nails truck. Many of us are buying this as a final vehicle in our lives. Is that even feasible?

If it has designed failure points, is this best? If it doesn't have failure points, could this still be a worthy truck in a crash - into a pole, from the side, rollover, head-on, etc. So much to consider, and a lot around here is often at best, educated guesses,. We truly need Elon to come forth with mass info. We deserve it. I think we all would love to learn more facts about this truck that we all have reservations for.

The make up of the different elements of the CT structure vary, and have been outlined before in this thread. (I think by Crissa). From what I can tell so far, structually the CT will consist of:

1. A passenger cabin safety cell made up of the structual battery pack and the "a-frame" thruss section around the doors including the roof. The doors will also assist the structural battery pack for side impact.
2. A front and rear casting assembly that also holds the drivetrain components, and suspension and wheels. And is structurally attached to the battery pack and passenger safety cell
3. A front body assembly that sits on the front casting with various layers of deformable energy absorbing structures. Including some form of pedestrian protection, which typically is a suspended hood (good for bouncing kangas off too without too much damage). Deformable grill/lights assembly or at least attached with snap fiitings (like most cars), impact absorbing and regenerative plastic/foam front bumper for smaller dings and then compression tubes to absorb frontal impacts and deflect offset impacts. Probably compressing the frunk in the process.
4. Rear body assembly consisting of bed floor subrame that sits on the rear suspension casting and beteen the bed wings so its load bearing, a fairly rigid tailgate assembly that can support loading bed with integrated ramp, a rear bumper out of regenerative plastic/foam for little dings, or possibly a steel one seeing pedestrian impact is less likely at speed. And then you would have the tow hitch reciever frame that will either attach to the rear subframe or bed or both.
5. Front and rear fenders exoskeleton.

Except for damage to the doors and windows (incl roof), and maybe lihgt frame dents, I'd expect damage to 1) will result in a write off. Damage to the front and rear casting 2) is repairable including drivetrain and suspension parts. The whole of 3) is repairable unless 1) is also impacted. As is most of 4).

Where I'm not sure is where and how the exoskeleton in the front and rear fenders transfers loads and impacts into 1) and 2).

I noticed the other day that the structural A pillar in the CT is actually right in front of the front door and not where the windscreen meets the hood. Its actually quite a beefy piece of steel going up there, to the point the windscreen is stepped back for it and blacked out.

 

[rr6013]

Absolutely, the battery pack is of huge concern from many angles. However, my primary concern with this thread is how much of an impact is going to total this tough as nails truck. Many of us are buying this as a final vehicle in our lives. Is that even feasible?

If it has designed failure points, is this best? If it doesn't have failure points, could this still be a worthy truck in a crash - into a pole, from the side, rollover, head-on, etc. So much to consider, and a lot around here is often at best, educated guesses,. We truly need Elon to come forth with mass info. We deserve it. I think we all would love to learn more facts about this truck that we all have reservations for.

Public knowledge is the fact that all EV batteries put wet meat atop 100’s of volts as the preferred, best BEV pinnacle failure point. BEV manufacturer’s haven’t known unknowns that you allude. Nor do there exist any Pinto-type exploding gastank unknown known design flaws like FORD kept in risk assessments, in fact.

Tesla design brief is transparent to enable a million mile battery lifetime. That known known fact exceeds human! If you drive a million miles Tesla battery is engineered to get you there. That truly, in fact, would be a win for you, me, everybody.

BEV‘s known weakest link and biggest fail point just improved, in fact, by Tesla eliminating the wet 12v battery with LiON 12v replacement. Tesla just improved the battery pack changing it to structural(as in structural strength). That enabled a reduced vehicle mass - that’s in fact safer! And it reduced cost, win-win?

Tesla admitted its 18650 battery chemistry has improved energy density reducing the amount of battery under occupant wet meat in its MS Plaid. Further Tesla revealed BEV centripetal force improved as a side benefit. Tesla’s known knowns for its practices of providing safer, fewer, lighter batteries and better energy density - win-win-win-win?

Gruber Motors categorically breaksdown Tesla battery, battery pack, battery cells, modules and electrical BMS engineering that could not be more transparent for public access and review on Youtube.com. Gruber details flooded battery packs and shows how Tesla design has eliminated water intrusion failure points over time. Failure modes are detailed, repair and improvements where needed are all included for all the world to see.

Facts I see reveal no guessing by Tesla. In fact, it’s documented that Tesla deliberately engineers for safer first, reduce cost, improve range and fix problems by simply eliminating them. Tesla are acting in a manner that exhibits a high engineering confidence, safety first culture with a consumer cost sensitivty and respect for health and human safety above all else, planet Earth.

Man, what does Tesla owe you - due to a public? Its not behaving like FORD who held knowledge in risk assessments that cost people fiery Pinto deaths that they accounted against for as a cost of doing business.

Buy FORD you can’t trust in Tesla or Elon.

 

[Crissa]

The structural battery will for the lower part of the 'safety cell' of the vehicle. The megacastings are the front and back parts of this cell as well.

Each will have sacrificial rails designed to crumple and then be sawn off; a replacement should bolt in place (the repaired vehicle will have more parts than a new vehicle!)

If you damage the battery in an EV, it's likely going to be totaled. This is a downer, but... A battery - structural or not - comprises a large amount of the cost and risk in an EV. This ends up quickly becoming the majority of the value in an EV.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

On reparability and crashes there's one thing that has been missed here.

Although the CT battery pack is structural and forms part of the passenger safety cell and will improve that considerably, I think it will be highly unlikely that damage to the structural battery pack can be repaired after even a moderate to low side impact and will result in a write-off, even if the frame and rest of the vehicle might not be that damaged. The battery pack is still the most expensive single component, so it might force the assessors hand either way.

If a Cybertruck is hit hard enough from the side that it damages the pack, yes, the frame of the vehicle is totaled. As Crissa has pointed out, minor damage to the side rail crumple zone may be repairable. Just as an ICE vehicle is totaled if it's T-boned that hard. The frame encapsulates the pack, you can repair front end frame damage and rear end frame damage but it would be a very unusual event to have substantial damage to the center of the frame not total the vehicle.

 

[John K]

If a Cybertruck is hit hard enough from the side that it damages the pack, yes, the frame of the vehicle is totaled. As Crissa has pointed out, minor damage to the side rail crumple zone may be repairable. Just as an ICE vehicle is totaled if it's T-boned that hard. The frame encapsulates the pack, you can repair front end frame damage and rear end frame damage but it would be a very unusual event to have substantial damage to the center of the frame not total the vehicle.

Great for donuts

 

[Revoltlution]

Consider that Elon refers to aircraft often when he's talking about the exoskeleton concept. What he doesn't talk about is that when the exoskeleton is damaged on an aircraft, it's often catastrophically so...

Airplanes aren't made of 3mm hardened stainless
Regarding safety, don't forget AEB/FSD should reduce chances of accidents by 10x... 100x... Eventually 1000x.
It's the other schmucks we'll have to watch out for. It will all be on video and their insurance rates will be sky-high!
One final comment. I'm guessing the CT will be the most environmentally recyclable vehicle ever built.

 

[FullyGrounded]

The make up of the different elements of the CT structure vary, and have been outlined before in this thread. (I think by Carrissa). From what I can tell so far, structually the CT will consist of:

1. A passenger cabin safety cell made up of the structual battery pack and the "a-frame" thruss section around the doors including the roof. The doors will also assist the structural battery pack for side impact.
2. A front and rear casting assembly that also holds the drivetrain components, and suspension and wheels. And is structurally attached to the battery pack and passenger safety cell
3. A front body assembly that sits on the front casting with various layers of deformable energy absorbing structures. Including some form of pedestrian protection, which typically is a suspended hood (good for bouncing kangas off too without too much damage). Deformable grill/lights assembly or at least attached with snap fiitings (like most cars), impact absorbing and regenerative plastic/foam front bumper for smaller dings and then compression tubes to absorb frontal impacts and deflect offset impacts. Probably compressing the frunk in the process.
4. Rear body assembly consisting of bed floor subrame that sits on the rear suspension casting and beteen the bed wings so its load bearing, a fairly rigid tailgate assembly that can support loading bed with integrated ramp, a rear bumper out of regenerative plastic/foam for little dings, or possibly a steel one seeing pedestrian impact is less likely at speed. And then you would have the tow hitch reciever frame that will either attach to the rear subframe or bed or both.
5. Front and rear fenders exoskeleton.

Except for damage to the doors and windows (incl roof), and maybe lihgt frame dents, I'd expect damage to 1) will result in a write off. Damage to the front and rear casting 2) is repairable including drivetrain and suspension parts. The whole of 3) is repairable unless 1) is also impacted. As is most of 4).

Where I'm not sure is where and how the exoskeleton in the front and rear fenders transfers loads and impacts into 1) and 2).

I noticed the other day that the structural A pillar in the CT is actually right in front of the front door and not where the windscreen meets the hood. Its actually quite a beefy piece of steel going up there, to the point the windscreen is stepped back for it and blacked out.

See, I don't get it. This is not necessarily fact. This all makes sense to Crissa, or whomever came up with it; but, unless it comes from Elon or direct from design plans, it's a big maybe. And, last I checked, maybe isn't fact.

See how this is wielded like a truth baton. It's not even necessarily truth. And, this forum is wrought with it. The other day, I saw where someone took Elon's statement of eventually expecting 350W charging or something, that it means this, and that means that... and, no it doesn't. It's not like here. This isn't math where if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. This is more akin to art. The Cybertruck, while being an engineering feat, it's also an artistic statement.

Airplanes aren't made of 3mm hardened stainless
Regarding safety, don't forget AEB/FSD should reduce chances of accidents by 10x... 100x... Eventually 1000x.
It's the other schmucks we'll have to watch out for. It will all be on video and their insurance rates will be sky-high!
One final comment. I'm guessing the CT will be the most environmentally recyclable vehicle ever built.

I know that airplanes.... blah, blah, blah.... but, it's the precise example Elon used, so tell him your wise words. FSD can't prevent stupid or evil, remember that. Ummm, it may have to be recyclable to get back all those precious metals. peace

 

[John K]

There is an old axiom, form follows function. The principal allows for some predictions to be close.

 

[JBee]

See, I don't get it. This is not necessarily fact. This all makes sense to Crissa, or whomever came up with it; but, unless it comes from Elon or direct from design plans, it's a big maybe. And, last I checked, maybe isn't fact.

See how this is wielded like a truth baton. It's not even necessarily truth. And, this forum is wrought with it. The other day, I saw where someone took Elon's statement of eventually expecting 350W charging or something, that it means this, and that means that... and, no it doesn't. It's not like here. This isn't math where if a = b, and b = c, then a = c. This is more akin to art. The Cybertruck, while being an engineering feat, it's also an artistic statement.

I know that airplanes.... blah, blah, blah.... but, it's the precise example Elon used, so tell him your wise words. FSD can't prevent stupid or evil, remember that. Ummm, it may have to be recyclable to get back all those precious metals. peace

I'm not sure what answer is you're looking for, but Crissa didn't come up with those points, tesla did. We just listed them in one place from what we have seen and have been told.

Heres some pictures from them:

1. Exoskeleton safety cell

2. And 3. That sits on structural battery pack and front and rear castings shown on battery day

4. And tesla crash aborbing structures front and rear (disregard the arrow)

 

[FullyGrounded]

I'm not sure what answer your looking for, but Crissa didn't come up with those points, tesla did. We just listed them in one place from what we have seen and have been told.

Heres some pictures from them:

1. Exoskeleton safety cell

2. And 3. That sits on structural battery pack and front and rear castings shown on battery day

4. And tesla crash aborbing structures front and rear (disregard the arrow)

The crash absorbing structures are fine, but this is not a Cybertruck. So, even if this was whatever model is most closely related to the CT, this is still not a picture of the CT underbody. So, it's not hard fact that the CT will have any of this, though maybe some. I'm also not saying it absolutely won't have it, just that this picture is not a "if/then" case. Seeing it in other models that aren't exoskelton in design, and even if they were... not a truck, meant for off-road as well as being prepared to protect in an accident.

So, maybe, but not absolutely is all I'm saying. People take stuff like this and start touting it as fact, and it's not. It is for that car, and that model of car, but not necessarily for all Tesla's, and certainly not necessarily for the Cybertruck. peace

 

[Crissa]

Well, I'm just describing what already exists. I can't know how specifically it'll be arranged, but I know the broad strokes.

I'm getting the 'cut off the damage and bolt on a repair' from Elon, actually:
https://insideevs.com/news/448213/elon-musk-repair-concerns-new-body-structure/

The other parts are from how cars are built today and Munro's examinations (boy he can go on and on but the real keen bit is that he's able to take so many cars apart and points out failure or cost points)

-Crissa

 

[FullyGrounded]

Well, I'm just describing what already exists. I can't know how specifically it'll be arranged, but I know the broad strokes.

I'm getting the 'cut off the damage and bolt on a repair' from Elon, actually:
https://insideevs.com/news/448213/elon-musk-repair-concerns-new-body-structure/

The other parts are from how cars are built today and Munro's examinations (boy he can go on and on but the real keen bit is that he's able to take so many cars apart and points out failure or cost points)

-Crissa

Right, but even Munro has seen the final Cybertruck. Nobody but the design and Elon, likely. And, who knows how much has changed - finer details, structure, shrinkage?, additions, changes to allow for certain options allowed, etc. So, the only way anyone should say, "This is how it's built", is with a caveat saying, "unless it's changed from this here in the final", if it's an actual pic of an earlier version of the Tesla Cybertruck. If it's some other car, the caveat should be more like, "It may be very different than this, or it could resemble the same exact example here", as I simply don't know since I'm not Elon or on the design team.

And, Crissa, I'm not saying you know nothing, or even very little. I believe you to be highly intelligent; however, with that intellect, I would really expect someone to know that difference between fact and how things can be similar and still not the same, or not similar at all, and still serve the same purpose. peace

 

[Crissa]

They aren't going to change 'that it has a safety cell' or 'crumple zones are designed to save the safety cell'. These are guiding principles in modern automotive design, of which Tesla is at the forefront.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

They aren't going to change 'that it has a safety cell' or 'crumple zones are designed to save the safety cell'. These are guiding principles in modern automotive design, of which Tesla is at the forefront.

-Crissa

Exactly!

FullyGrounded is not fully grounded, not when it comes to logical thinking. To think Tesla might all of a sudden throw out all they have learned about crash safety and design and manufacture a sub-standard product in terms of passenger safety requires quite an active imagination.

I think we are safe in saying that no matter how Tesla alters the final version of the Cybertruck it will be done with safety as the number one priority just as they have done with all their vehicles. Is it a fact that they won't change course? Not technically, but it's raising really ridiculous concerns and doubts to think they will suddenly change.

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