Foundation Series Remorse

[cvalue13]

The tools I have available (free ABRP and ChargeGo kludgy phone app) don't allow for caps like that.

However, your 'out and back' to Big Bend National Park is the KEY problem area in your scenario.

1) ABRP doesn't think my '17 TMX ("LR") will make it.
2) But it does think the CT AWD dual will.
[NOTE: it does have an option for a CT AWD Dual *with* a Range Extender but it is broke making some illogical test (range and changing doesn't even pass the smell test). The internal testing of that was a fail.]

Tesla Model X 2017 - [Look at Fort Stockton first charge - 100%]

Cybertruck AWD Dual - [Look at Fort Stockton first charge - 90%]

is this working CT the scenario with a 75mph max speed assumption, or a 65mph assumption?

did you play with the CT's settings? eg im curious what you used for the assumed reference consumption

regardless, but important to the context of the recent discussions: i assume the "5%-50%" strategy either didnt make it even to Fort Stockton, or did so only by going a northern route that ~2X'd the time?

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[scottf200]

is this working CT the scenario with a 75mph max speed assumption, or a 65mph assumption?

did you play with the CT's settings? eg im curious what you used for the assumed reference consumption

regardless, but important to the context of the recent discussions: i assume the "5%-50%" strategy either didnt make it even to Fort Stockton, or did so only by going a northern route that ~2X'd the time?

This has been an interesting exercise.

I focused on: Fort Stockton, TX to Big Bend National Park TX and back to Fort Stockton, TX because the rest was trivial. From this map there are not a lot of other options for the entire route: https://supercharge.info/map

Re: but important to the context of the recent discussions: i assume the "5%-50%" strategy either didnt make it even to Fort Stockton
For a particular charging stop, I could force a max charge to 50%. It would obey that BUT it would then would go to another charge even if it had to backtrack or divert to another charger so that it would meet it's goal of making the destination (expected). Example, I could stop charging at Fort Stockton, TX at 50% but then it went to Pecos, TX to do extra charging and get enough kWh to make the destination.

Re: im curious what you used for the assumed reference consumption
ABRP has a 65 mph reference number that you provide. I used 458 Wh/mi from my MotorMatchUp research.

* You can provided ABRP a *maximum* speed but it appears if the speed limit is less (or other factors?) then it will go less. Very easy to realize this because on each leg you can see the distance traveled in a given hours & minutes so you can calculate the average.

* MEANING setting the maximum speed to 75 or 80 that for a given stretch you may not average that. GREAT example is: it was always below an average of 65 mph from Fort Stockton, TX to Big Bend National Park TX no matter the max speed limit I gave it.

Here is the results for a max speed limit of 65 and 75 mph.
Re: working CT the scenario with a 75mph max speed assumption, or a 65mph assumption?

 

[Woodrick]

is this working CT the scenario with a 75mph max speed assumption, or a 65mph assumption?

did you play with the CT's settings? eg im curious what you used for the assumed reference consumption

regardless, but important to the context of the recent discussions: i assume the "5%-50%" strategy either didnt make it even to Fort Stockton, or did so only by going a northern route that ~2X'd the time?

5-50% is never envisioned as something that you do for every Supercharger visit, it's concept is when you have a string of Superchargers to go by.
Even in the 5-50% concept, you may stop for lunch and charge longer and you will just about always want to stay a little longer at the last Supercharger, so that you can arrive with a little "driving around" energy before having to charge.

Look at one of the ABRP slider bars

What do you think that it does?
It's optimizing the amount of time that you stay and the number of Superchargers.

To handle the charge a little more at the last stop, I believe that ABRP has setting to set arrival charge.

After you understand that you aren't driving an ICE and that the rules change, and you understand why you want to charge on the good side of the battery curve, it's pretty easy to do.

Since we tend to never drive to a plan, I usually look for a Supercharger about 150 miles away, and then figure out what the actual distance is. I then look at the current utilization on the Energy pages and charge until the current estimate has got a suitable buffer for me. It usually ends up being about 2+ hours, a good pace for pee and stretch breaks.
Remember 5-50% is basically 15-150 miles.

I also know that if I charge with a 0% buffer, the car is still going to try to take care of me. It'll tell me to slow down if it feels that I can't make the next Supercharger (Conservative estimate) it will tell me to slow down. Remember only 5 mph means about 10% of your range.

 

[cvalue13]

What do you think that it does?

everyone who uses ABRP knows what that does

why are you always so pretentious?


speaking of, hey @Outdoors, looks like @Woodrick also disagrees with your 5-50% claptrap being the solution to the core of range anxiety:

5-50% is never envisioned as something that you do for every Supercharger visit, it's concept is when you have a string of Superchargers to go by.

exactly, which re-makes the point being earlier debated about the “pro tip” RE 5-50%:

people’s range anxiety does not pivot on drives with “strings of [fast chargers]” allowing for 5-50% driving

people’s range anxiety pivots on the parts of certain drives with seemingly material gaps in superchargers, even if those are edge cases


to THAT point of anxiety, I and others were pointing out the optional solutions, and placing high in the solution set driving slower

which of course is also Tesla’s preferred solution:

I also know that if I charge with a 0% buffer, the car is still going to try to take care of me. It'll tell me to slow down if it feels that I can't make the next Supercharger (Conservative estimate) it will tell me to slow down. Remember only 5 mph means about 10% of your range.

Which is why, in a discussion about range anxiety, this “pro tip” seemed so out of touch (and bizarrely soaked in that earlier-mentioned pretentiousness):

I know that this is so hard for you non-EV drivers to understand, but the secret to driving an EV is to go faster! What, but the range suffers. Sure, so what?

 

[Woodrick]

everyone who uses ABRP knows what that does

why are you always so pretentious?


speaking of, hey @Outdoors, looks like @Woodrick also disagrees with your 5-50% claptrap being the solution to the core of range anxiety:

Don't remember anyone saying that it is the cure to range anxiety.

All we are saying is that charging 15-80% isn't the fastest way to travel in a Tesla (and probably most EVs, except Lightnings). Sitting at Superchargers for long times isn't a requirement.

And the best part isn't that I came up with the idea. Others did, over 5 years ago,
I'm sorry if it is new to the Lightning Fanboy.
I've driven the concept many times and it saves me a LOT of time. I've probably put over 20,000 miles on road trips using it.

We bring it up, only to help those who keep reading these YouTube videos understand that there are alternatives.

I really don't care if you believe it or not.

 

[scottf200]

Re: but important to the context of the recent discussions: i assume the "5%-50%" strategy either didnt make it even to Fort Stockton
For a particular charging stop, I could force a max charge to 50%. It would obey that BUT it would then would go to another charge even if it had to backtrack or divert to another charger so that it would meet it's goal of making the destination (expected). Example, I could stop charging at Fort Stockton, TX at 50% but then it went to Pecos, TX to do extra charging and get enough kWh to make the destination.

@cvalue13 , here is the example of when I would force 50% as the max for Fort Stockton, TX.
That ABRP, is a little crazy like fox.

As there gets to be more and more chargers, I think on some routes you could set a limit to 50% if you had a 'long range' car. Sometimes, you have to spend 5-10 minutes getting off the highway to go to the Supercharger ... so there is a point of diminishing returns. My spouse gets nervous when I run to low but I use the trick of comparing 'predicted range @ 30 miles' > built-in-nav range to alleviate anxiety. It has worked fantastic for me ("us"). For grins, I may try that 50% limit on a route I take to visit one of our kids. I already did the low of 5% which is range anxiety inducing for my spouse sometimes.

 

[Celiboy]

70mph (driving at the speed limit) with 400-500 mile epa range means you can easily make a 250-300 mile 3-4 hour drive without stopping to charge. Nice, easy, stress free road trip. Charge at destination. With the ct, not so much. There’s convenience, then there’s safety…have any of you arguing for driving 55-60mph on freeways with truckers flying past you at 70mph ever actually driven around crowded west coast highways?

Sounds like you’re looking for the Chevy Silverado RV. It’s supposed have 450-500 miles of range.

 

[scottf200]

Aside: ABRP and CT w/R.E. interplay

regardless, but important to the context of the recent discussions: i assume the "5%-50%" strategy either didnt make it even to Fort Stockton, or did so only by going a northern route that ~2X'd the time?

FYI, using the Cybertruck AWD Dual *with* Range Extender is really seems to be having some interplay conflicts with standard ABRP trip optimizing. Could be large pack of ~173 kWh that is throwing it off. Curious!

Even if I use the sliding scale for 'Charging Stops' to do 'few but long' is is trying to stay under 50% charging (except 1 stop!!) Illogical to me. I would expect it to charge to 80% or more using the 'few but long' input.

 

[Saygmo]

Sounds like you’re looking for the Chevy Silverado RV. It’s supposed have 450-500 miles of range.

Or, ya know… this truck

 

[Teslaman]

I also had major remorse over both range and pricing of FS. This evening I placed my order for a couple of reasons:

Unclear on how long I would have to wait for a not FS CT ( I am aging).

The inclusion of both FSD and PowerShare.

 

[cvalue13]

MEANING setting the maximum speed to 75 or 80 that for a given stretch you may not average that. GREAT example is: it was always below an average of 65 mph from Fort Stockton, TX to Big Bend National Park TX no matter the max speed limit I gave it.

See that toggle called “reference speed”, set to 100%

That means ABRP caps your speed at any applicable speed limit on the route.

So if your “max speed” is set to 75, but the road is 65, you will be calculated at 65

To fix this, and see the results of an eg 85mph sustained drive, change the “reference speed” to say 150% (or 200%, why not!), then set your “max speed” to 85mph.


with that, you should be able to more fully witness the scenario of driving from Austin to Big Bend targeting 5-50% @75-85mph

Here’s a version of these settings, using your (still possibly optimistic 458 wh/mi @65mph):

Selecting only superchargers+NACS, ABRP gives the failure screen and this advice:

The same result is reached by lowering the target speed from 85mph to 75mph, or 65mph.

But at 55mph, limited to 5-50% charge, it gives this fun little jaunt:

If we instead relieve the SOC 5-50% pressure up to 5-75% pressure, but jump back to the 85mph speed pressure:

We get this alternative “to” route:

Trouble is, the above trip is one-way, and your CT is never making it out of Big Bend under its own power.

If you’re hoping to stay anywhere in Big Bend without L2/L1 charging, AND get home, it is not possible to make this round trip on superchargers/NACS with any combination of speed and SOC bandwidth.


Even with L2, it doesn’t really work.

Any way you cut it, your round trip to Big Bend in a CT now requires ar least a ~12hr (overnight) stay on L2 in Terlingua, at best.

Ok fine, now the trip to BB involves an overnight in TL. But on what route planning/travel timing terms?

Let’s say you’re a real badass, and don’t mind the SOC at arrival set to 5%, despite the expanses of nothing in this part of the country.

You can set your max to 75mph, but still have to let ABRP adjust your speed downward to make several legs - and now you’re L2 charging in both Terlingua (5hr), and an overnight at Fort Davis (9hr) neither too very “on your way”:

If you instead peg your speed to 65 for the whole trip, now you’re only overnighting in Terlingua for a 12hr L2:

One last trick: what if instead you *shutter* take the Lightning ER, and peg your speed to 65?

No overnight in Terlingua and 3 fewer charges, and an hour less drive time. (But you’re now engaging in 5% SOC play in the nothing of West Texas.)

If you instead peg to 75mph, you’re back to an overnight in Terlingua, 3 more charges

Having gone through all the above, the big takeaway is how range anxiety exists at the outer fringe away from fast charging corridors, esp those involving out-and-backs.

And while it’s fringe, Big Bend is the premier national forest in Texas - someone who lives in Austin wants to go there sometime. These scenarios are far from imagined. And while their occurrence is rare, their importance is disproportionate in the judgment of buyers.

For people fretting over it, you can’t just tell them “the trick is to go faster and barely charge at each spot, there’s superchargers everywhere.”

That to me is like someone saying, “it’s easy to shoot a bullseye in a 50 meter match: you just stand 2 meters away instead.”

 

[BlackCyber]

Very unlikely I will be getting one after reading these posts . This is not a work truck that can be reliably used in the north especially with the lack of charging stations, time it takes to charge etc .

I've learned a lot from this forum and im sure the CT can suite some people but not in my case .

When Tesla reaches out to me to finalize my order - presumably by October this year then I will reconsider my options.

 

[Celiboy]

Or, ya know… this truck

From the post I quoted you sounded like that truck doesn’t meet your needs.

 

[Coolbreeze704]

See that toggle called “reference speed”, set to 100%

That means ABRP caps your speed at any applicable speed limit on the route.

So if your “max speed” is set to 75, but the road is 65, you will be calculated at 65

To fix this, and see the results of an eg 85mph sustained drive, change the “reference speed” to say 150% (or 200%, why not!), then set your “max speed” to 85mph.


with that, you should be able to more fully witness the scenario of driving from Austin to Big Bend targeting 5-50% @75-85mph

Here’s a version of these settings, using your (still possibly optimistic 458 wh/mi @65mph):

Selecting only superchargers+NACS, ABRP gives the failure screen and this advice:

The same result is reached by lowering the target speed from 85mph to 75mph, or 65mph.

But at 55mph, limited to 5-50% charge, it gives this fun little jaunt:

If we instead relieve the SOC 5-50% pressure up to 5-75% pressure, but jump back to the 85mph speed pressure:

We get this alternative “to” route:

Trouble is, the above trip is one-way, and your CT is never making it out of Big Bend under its own power.

If you’re hoping to stay anywhere in Big Bend without L2/L1 charging, AND get home, it is not possible to make this round trip on superchargers/NACS with any combination of speed and SOC bandwidth.


Even with L2, it doesn’t really work.

Any way you cut it, your round trip to Big Bend in a CT now requires ar least a ~12hr (overnight) stay on L2 in Terlingua, at best.

Ok fine, now the trip to BB involves an overnight in TL. But on what route planning/travel timing terms?

Let’s say you’re a real badass, and don’t mind the SOC at arrival set to 5%, despite the expanses of nothing in this part of the country.

You can set your max to 75mph, but still have to let ABRP adjust your speed downward to make several legs - and now you’re L2 charging in both Terlingua (5hr), and an overnight at Fort Davis (9hr) neither too very “on your way”:

If you instead peg your speed to 65 for the whole trip, now you’re only overnighting in Terlingua for a 12hr L2:

One last trick: what if instead you *shutter* take the Lightning ER, and peg your speed to 65?

No overnight in Terlingua and 3 fewer charges, and an hour less drive time. (But you’re now engaging in 5% SOC play in the nothing of West Texas.)

If you instead peg to 75mph, you’re back to an overnight in Terlingua, 3 more charges

Having gone through all the above, the big takeaway is how range anxiety exists at the outer fringe away from fast charging corridors, esp those involving out-and-backs.

And while it’s fringe, Big Bend is the premier national forest in Texas - someone who lives in Austin wants to go there sometime. These scenarios are far from imagined. And while their occurrence is rare, their importance is disproportionate in the judgment of buyers.

For people fretting over it, you can’t just tell them “the trick is to go faster and barely charge at each spot, there’s superchargers everywhere.”

That to me is like someone saying, “it’s easy to shoot a bullseye in a 50 meter match: you just stand 2 meters away instead.”

I so enjoy how you dig into a topic to have deep understanding. Thanks for sharing @cvalue13 @scottf200

 

[Woodrick]

Very unlikely I will be getting one after reading these posts . This is not a work truck that can be reliably used in the north especially with the lack of charging stations, time it takes to charge etc .

I've learned a lot from this forum and im sure the CT can suite some people but not in my case .

When Tesla reaches out to me to finalize my order - presumably by October this year then I will reconsider my options.

Where in the "North" are you?

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