Massive oversight: bidirectional home charging V2H

[Pkbikeman]

With that massive battery, why has Elon decided not to provide us with bidirectional home charging? Unless just to force us to buy more PowerWalls? C’mon, Provide us this basic need that ALL EVs will eventually have. Its not going to be easy to add that after delivery.
Paulk

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[Gurule92]

You heard Tesla say it doesnt?

 

[CYBRSMTH]

With that massive battery, why has Elon decided not to provide us with bidirectional home charging? Unless just to force us to buy more PowerWalls? C’mon, Provide us this basic need that ALL EVs will eventually have. Its not going to be easy to add that after delivery.
Paulk

I think it’s not only a financial decision to prevent the cannibalization of PowerWalls, but also what if you have to unplug your vehicle and use it during the outage? Then your whole house would go dark. What if you need to use FSD to collect your other family members during an emergency. Sorry, I’ve got to power the house with the EV kids, you’ll have to take an Uber. What if you’re powering your house with your vehicle, it drains completely over several days, but then you’re forced to evacuate. Whoops!

Joking aside, it does seem kind of a waste of a giant battery not to have V2G.

 

[JBee]

I think it’s not only a financial decision to prevent the cannibalization of PowerWalls, but also what if you have to unplug your vehicle and use it during the outage? Then your whole house would go dark. What if you need to use FSD to collect your other family members during an emergency. Sorry, I’ve got to power the house with the EV kids, you’ll have to take an Uber. What if you’re powering your house with your vehicle, it drains completely over several days, but then you’re forced to evacuate. Whoops!

Joking aside, it does seem kind of a waste of a giant battery not to have V2G.

Those are all edge case management problems. Some of us are off grid and already live that way, so V2X would far out weigh those scenarios. Also the reason I ordered. One can stay home as a battery, cheaper than a powerwall of same capacity and comes with a free car...

The CT will have inverter 110/230V outputs anyway, so you could hook up there, worst case anyway.

 

[anionic1]

Those are all edge case management problems. Some of us are off grid and already live that way, so V2X would far out weigh those scenarios. Also the reason I ordered. One can stay home as a battery, cheaper than a powerwall of same capacity and comes with a free car...

The CT will have inverter 110/230V outputs anyway, so you could hook up there, worst case anyway.

Really it’s actually pretty simple with that 240v outlet. You make a cable with 2 male ends. You flip off your house main breaker. You plug one end of the cable into your CT and the other end into your dryer outlet. You are now feeding your house V2H and the circuit is in fact still entirely protected. And if you have solar, the system should still work fine. But you didn’t hear this from me. Just make sure to unplug before turning your main back on. If you wanted to get fancy you could put an ATS and a separate outlet like a generator has. It’s really not complicated. But you would be limited to the amperage of the CT 240V outlet. Tru V2G probably would allow for much higher amperage. But in an emergency as long as your lights, refrigerator and basic appliances work at least you will be comfortable and surviving.

 

[Crissa]

Hardly, they have a long wait list for Powerwall, and often have limited it to solar-only customers.

It's something they don't value highly, but this is their first truly utilitarian vehicle. Values change when the data is different.

-Crissa

 

[JBee]

Really it’s actually pretty simple with that 240v outlet. You make a cable with 2 male ends. You flip off your house main breaker. You plug one end of the cable into your CT and the other end into your dryer outlet. You are now feeding your house V2H and the circuit is in fact still entirely protected. And if you have solar, the system should still work fine. But you didn’t hear this from me. Just make sure to unplug before turning your main back on. If you wanted to get fancy you could put an ATS and a separate outlet like a generator has. It’s really not complicated. But you would be limited to the amperage of the CT 240V outlet. Tru V2G probably would allow for much higher amperage. But in an emergency as long as your lights, refrigerator and basic appliances work at least you will be comfortable and surviving.

Otherwise known as a hot plug cable.

But be very careful not to turn on the breaker and inverter until the cable is plugged in both ends, and the main household breaker is switched off.

In general though I'd never recommend it, it is dangerous as anyone that unplugs the cable is then holding a live wire on the exposed plug pin, and on top of that, if your electrician stuffed up your neutral wiring, you might still be feeding power back into the grid to an unfortunate linesman.

There's also a matter of earthing, either from the CT or from a house residual current protection circuit, that will simply trip as well without the right earthing.

Much safer to get a generator input plug installed in your box with a mains lockout switch. That way no one can complain, most importantly safe, and it should cost you less than $500 to do and you can use it all the time.

 

[Dids]

Additional cost of bi direction charger ~$800
Additional cost of installing it... ?

Cost of a generac 7.4 kw generator ~1200 cost to install it probably similar to installing the bi directional charger....

With generator house is powered when you are away with CT.

Don't worry mom I will be home in 8 hrs.....

 

[ÆCIII]

While V2G would be nice in power outage situations, it will of course tie up the vehicle unless one wants a sudden power drop if they need to go anywhere. There is also the issue of needing a more powerful inverter on board the vehicle to support a useful current level for V2G, which adds weight and is being carried around all the time, whether used or not.

Some people will say that the onboard power inverters are already enough, and maybe in some situations they might be (we don't even know what they are yet though) - but if they are overloaded either the protection will take them offline (sudden power drop again), or the onboard power inverters could be damaged.

There is also the need for a transfer switch functionality to interface and assure that the vehicle onboard power inverters will not be in conflict if the grid power should come back on while V2G is in operation, because the power would have to be synced in phase or there would be major problems. This again is something that the Powerwalls already have integrated, and something that also adds weight if it is just carried around all the time.

Tesla is making the Cybertruck for the US and the World. I don't think the frequency of power outages overall for the average household in a vast majority of places would justify a need for something like V2G. Sure there are places that have power outages more often, but that gets into infrastructure, financial, and forestry management for a lot of those areas - and a vast many more areas just don't have frequent power outages like others do. I know many people who don't even remember when their last power outage was, or some that do recall it only happening once in three to five years or so.

Tesla has to pay for the more robust inverter and power interface components in your vehicle if it would have V2G, thus you're paying for it too - so really it's like you're paying for a portion of a PowerWall anyway by having V2G in your vehicle - except Without the benefit of keeping the vehicle available for use. Again, for many, it makes no sense to carry around extra weight for a V2G feature that might get used only once every few years.

I don't get it - some people are so worried about the side mirrors causing a very small amount of extra drag, but they're Ok with the vehicle carrying around extra weight all the time for that once in a few years instance to provide coverage during a power outage?

Of course, there are those that say they want to use the vehicle to charge at night during off-peak hours, and then repeatedly provide power back during the daytime peak hours to save a little on electricity rates. Problem with that is it requires a lot more charge and discharge cycles on your vehicle battery than for just driving, and thus would shorten the battery life or cause range degradation to happen quicker. So with residence peaker usage, you're not only dealing with extra weight and components for V2G that would've paid for at least part of a Powerwall, but you're also impacting the vehicle battery life as well. For this use case the onboard vehicle inverters would again have to be robust because vehicle is supporting anything in the house and during peak hours as well, which actually causes wear on the already more-expensive inverters too.

Why not pay for a Powerwall and have extra peace of mind that your vehicle will remain available, your vehicle will be more efficient, and your vehicle battery is not being taxed for more wear and tear? I think many people are raving about V2G because of the peaker benefits they've seen Powerwall owners have, and they just want to somehow get a Powerwall capability included in the vehicle for free. But again, I don't think it's that simple and I think Tesla separates these extra components of cost and weight into their Powerwall line for good reasons.

For those areas with frequent power outages, I do 'get it', so maybe it's something Tesla can offer as an Option, so that the Cost of V2G vehicle components is clear and well known to buyers. Those who insist they need V2G can get it if they're willing to pay the extra cost. They might not like the extra cost, but I'm sure Tesla would make sure the feature worked well (in both current capacity and also grid interface management).

But I certainly don't see the need to have V2G as 'Standard' though, because for many it's added cost and weight that will seldom get used.

I do think Tesla definitely needs to increase their Powerwall production because of demand and people that are on a waiting list for it. Many people wanting this capability in the form of V2G, are just more evidence of that.

- ÆCIII

 

[fhteagle]

While V2G would be nice in power outage situations

V2G in a grid down scenario is an oxymoron.

Most of your comments need "V2L", or "V2H" substituted for V2G. And no, these are NOT synonymous.

However, with the right equipment in the home, V2L can be used also as V2H seamlessly, albeit with a manual additional connection step.

V2L is what the vehicle needs, preferably in 240V single or split phase for North America and decent amperage. That is sufficient to run loads away from the home, and to supplement an existing home ESS. That feature is absolutely worth the tiny amount of weight, complexity, and expense to install in every vehicle.

 

[cvalue13]

Additional cost of bi direction charger ~$800
Additional cost of installing it... ?

Cost of a generac 7.4 kw generator ~1200 cost to install it probably similar to installing the bi directional charger....

With generator house is powered when you are away with CT.

Don't worry mom I will be home in 8 hrs.....

move priced out both, and the generac install costs vary wildly depending on home facts

the most expensive route, though, by a wide margin, are powerwalls

 

[BayouCityBob]

The "base price" on an F150 Lightning home backup installation is $9,000 and then SunRun tries to use it to sell you one of their scammy, overpriced solar installations.

The market for using vehicles as home backup systems will arrive, but not at these prices. It will take awhile.

https://www.sunrun.com/ev-charging/ford-f150-lightning

 

[JBee]

While V2G would be nice in power outage situations, it will of course tie up the vehicle unless one wants a sudden power drop if they need to go anywhere. There is also the issue of needing a more powerful inverter on board the vehicle to support a useful current level for V2G, which adds weight and is being carried around all the time, whether used or not.

Some people will say that the onboard power inverters are already enough, and maybe in some situations they might be (we don't even know what they are yet though) - but if they are overloaded either the protection will take them offline (sudden power drop again), or the onboard power inverters could be damaged.

There is also the need for a transfer switch functionality to interface and assure that the vehicle onboard power inverters will not be in conflict if the grid power should come back on while V2G is in operation, because the power would have to be synced in phase or there would be major problems. This again is something that the Powerwalls already have integrated, and something that also adds weight if it is just carried around all the time.

Tesla is making the Cybertruck for the US and the World. I don't think the frequency of power outages overall for the average household in a vast majority of places would justify a need for something like V2G. Sure there are places that have power outages more often, but that gets into infrastructure, financial, and forestry management for a lot of those areas - and a vast many more areas just don't have frequent power outages like others do. I know many people who don't even remember when their last power outage was, or some that do recall it only happening once in three to five years or so.

Tesla has to pay for the more robust inverter and power interface components in your vehicle if it would have V2G, thus you're paying for it too - so really it's like you're paying for a portion of a PowerWall anyway by having V2G in your vehicle - except Without the benefit of keeping the vehicle available for use. Again, for many, it makes no sense to carry around extra weight for a V2G feature that might get used only once every few years.

I don't get it - some people are so worried about the side mirrors causing a very small amount of extra drag, but they're Ok with the vehicle carrying around extra weight all the time for that once in a few years instance to provide coverage during a power outage?

Of course, there are those that say they want to use the vehicle to charge at night during off-peak hours, and then repeatedly provide power back during the daytime peak hours to save a little on electricity rates. Problem with that is it requires a lot more charge and discharge cycles on your vehicle battery than for just driving, and thus would shorten the battery life or cause range degradation to happen quicker. So with residence peaker usage, you're not only dealing with extra weight and components for V2G that would've paid for at least part of a Powerwall, but you're also impacting the vehicle battery life as well. For this use case the onboard vehicle inverters would again have to be robust because vehicle is supporting anything in the house and during peak hours as well, which actually causes wear on the already more-expensive inverters too.

Why not pay for a Powerwall and have extra peace of mind that your vehicle will remain available, your vehicle will be more efficient, and your vehicle battery is not being taxed for more wear and tear? I think many people are raving about V2G because of the peaker benefits they've seen Powerwall owners have, and they just want to somehow get a Powerwall capability included in the vehicle for free. But again, I don't think it's that simple and I think Tesla separates these extra components of cost and weight into their Powerwall line for good reasons.

For those areas with frequent power outages, I do 'get it', so maybe it's something Tesla can offer as an Option, so that the Cost of V2G vehicle components is clear and well known to buyers. Those who insist they need V2G can get it if they're willing to pay the extra cost. They might not like the extra cost, but I'm sure Tesla would make sure the feature worked well (in both current capacity and also grid interface management).

But I certainly don't see the need to have V2G as 'Standard' though, because for many it's added cost and weight that will seldom get used.

I do think Tesla definitely needs to increase their Powerwall production because of demand and people that are on a waiting list for it. Many people wanting this capability in the form of V2G, are just more evidence of that.

- ÆCIII

Sorry but you are not quite right on many aspects.

First up bi-directional charger are within 1 ounce of the same weight as a normal charger. In fact many chargers are bi-directional (h-bridge topology) already, just software limited. There was a thread on here last year that described how it's actually fairly easy to use the motor speed controllers themselves for V2G and export to the grid or house at power levels close to that of the motors on continuous draw, so around 40-50kW. As for synchronising with the grid this is also a solved problem, every $500 household solar inverter does this out of the box. It also does anti-islanding the same way, which means it shuts down if it is not disconnected from the grid first though a switchover. So V2X is little more than a software upgrade to the already available charger Tesla has been dragging their feet on this for years. Most others already have it integrated, hyndai, Kia, BYD, Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen...just not Tesla.

As for battery cycling you using your battery down to 15% or charging over 90% in your daily commute reduces the cycling capacity of the batteries more than the house using between 25% and 80% every single day. Cycling is most damaging at either end of the SOC, not in the middle where you could limit it to for V2X. But even if you did use full capacity it would be discharging much much slower then whilst driving, meaning it still degrades less than using it for driving.

Plenty of info out there on V2X/G/L/V just need to look for it. It's also the best way to buffer the grid to allow more renewables and EV's.

 

[ED_SFO]

A proper dual fuel generator hooked up to your home would be a better alternative to a vehicle anyway. V2h is limited by vehicles battery state of charge. These new propane /gas generators seem way more cost effective and more useful overall.

 

[slomo]

A 240V inverter is important, bidirectional is not. It seems to me that the former is highly likely and the later isn't going to happen. Many reasons to not do bidirectional, including NMC cells.

The counter argument is that there may very well be bidirectional pieces in powerwall and wall connectors.

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