Non-foundation vs foundation range, new battery?

[poiuyt]

I'd like to do 300 miles in 15F weather at 80-85mph. This roundtrip from Boston to Wildcat/Attitash mountain. I'm going to call this the "troll's journey" given my first reply.

Stop at the supercharger in North Conway. Easy

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[mongo]

I am more interested in the battery chemistry question - are they using the dry cathode in NonFS yet?

That would explain 2025 trucks qualifying for the Clean Vehicle Credit. (Chinese cathodes made 2024s ineligible).

 

[500 EPA miles]

Stop at the supercharger in North Conway. Easy

As I said, I've done this kind of trip many many times. Adding another hour to 5-6 hours of driving and 6 hours of skiing is not what I want to do. Also, the practical matter of trying to arrive at the supercharger with a low enough SoC and a warm enough battery is challenging, especially given that Tesla disables active battery heating if you try to arrive at a supercharger under ~18% SoC (they've changed this level in the past, I don't know what it is this year, yet)

 

[500 EPA miles]

That would explain 2025 trucks qualifying for the Clean Vehicle Credit. (Chinese cathodes made 2024s ineligible).

If it was dry cathode I would have expected the capacity and charge rate to increase. A better explanation is it's wet cathode from lower quality domestic sources.

 

[mongo]

If it was dry cathode I would have expected the capacity and charge rate to increase. A better explanation is it's wet cathode from lower quality domestic sources.

Dry cathode doesn't mean different active chemistry. Tesla reported DBE cells in test vehicles last year.

 

[500 EPA miles]

Dry cathode doesn't mean different active chemistry. Tesla reported DBE cells in test vehicles last year.

Dry process in itself theoretically improves the cathode, a lot of what's going on during degradation is due to the microscopic structure of the electrolyte, not just its chemical constituents.

 

[kpanda17]

guys, think we are at gen 3a for hybrid, 3b will be 100% dry
Jordan/Limiting Factor did the research
hoping for the 3b early this year and the range extender
btw, the extender at $16K has the capacity of 4 powerwalls at almost 1/4 the cost, powershare

 

[SCTesla]

Dry process in itself theoretically improves the cathode, a lot of what's going on during degradation is due to the microscopic structure of the electrolyte, not just its chemical constituents.

It could, but as we know with all Tesla made batteries, the first iterations are a step back and then they protect them as far as charging speed. The dry cathode process has always said to be a cost saving measure for Tesla and not much of a net gain for the consumer.

 

[mongo]

Dry process in itself theoretically improves the cathode, a lot of what's going on during degradation is due to the microscopic structure of the electrolyte, not just its chemical constituents.

Removing the solvent does improve degradation, but doesn't impact inital energy. It's the future high silicon anode which was called out as boosting capacity and to a lower extent, high nickel cathode. https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/IR/2020-battery-day-presentation-deck

 

[500 EPA miles]

Removing the solvent does improve degradation, but doesn't impact inital energy. It's the future high silicon anode which was called out as boosting capacity and to a lower extent, high nickel cathode. https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/IR/2020-battery-day-presentation-deck

"When DBE is applied in fabricating SSEs, the developed ionic transport contributes to the accelerated kinetics and to improved performances. 30%–50% of cathodic capacity can be increased, especially in thick electrodes with high areal mass loading and high active materials contents"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259023852200011X

Somewhere, you can go find the Maxwell brochure on DBE which they published shortly before being acquired by Tesla. They were showing a path to 500Wh/kg, IIRC.

 

[SCTesla]

"When DBE is applied in fabricating SSEs, the developed ionic transport contributes to the accelerated kinetics and to improved performances. 30%–50% of cathodic capacity can be increased, especially in thick electrodes with high areal mass loading and high active materials contents"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259023852200011X

Somewhere, you can go find the Maxwell brochure on DBE which they published shortly before being acquired by Tesla. They were showing a path to 500Wh/kg, IIRC.

That's as useful as the battery day presentation where Tesla said the 4680 would get 5x energy 6x power and 16% range increase.

Tesla said earlier this year that dry cathode "is more for in house efficiencies". It's not going to produce much for consumers in range or charging speed, especially at first. If anything it will be less range and lower speeds for SC, which could be what we are seeing with Non-FS.

 

[Jedi2155]

Removing the solvent does improve degradation, but doesn't impact inital energy. It's the future high silicon anode which was called out as boosting capacity and to a lower extent, high nickel cathode. https://digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/IR/2020-battery-day-presentation-deck

It is illustrated here as a 4% range increase at best, and 12% cost reduction in terms of materails. The big change is eliminating the wet process / drying steps needed in a new assembly line as indicated by the 16% investment reduction since you don't need as much equipment. Cybercell V2 already has the dry anode material, but we're just lacking the dry electrode material.

DBE's big boost is for scaling production at lower costs.

 

[mongo]

"When DBE is applied in fabricating SSEs, the developed ionic transport contributes to the accelerated kinetics and to improved performances. 30%–50% of cathodic capacity can be increased, especially in thick electrodes with high areal mass loading and high active materials contents"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S259023852200011X

Somewhere, you can go find the Maxwell brochure on DBE which they published shortly before being acquired by Tesla. They were showing a path to 500Wh/kg, IIRC.

SSE is solid state electrolyte, 4680 aren't.
There is no reason to think they are using thick cathode at this point since that requires addition anode capacity.

 

[scottf200]

That's as useful as the battery day presentation where Tesla said the 4680 would get 5x energy 6x power and 16% range increase.

Tesla said earlier this year that dry cathode "is more for in house efficiencies". It's not going to produce much for consumers in range or charging speed, especially at first. If anything it will be less range and lower speeds for SC, which could be what we are seeing with Non-FS.

Possibly how we ended up with the red below in recent changes?
4.4% is nothing to sneeze at if you are road tripping and trying to skip supercharges.

 

[Crissa]

I'd like to do 300 miles in 15F weather at 80-85mph. This roundtrip from Boston to Wildcat/Attitash mountain. I'm going to call this the "troll's journey" given my first reply.

Driving 85mph in 15F seems more like a fool's journey.

You should be using a gasser in that case, not really a great use case for any EV right now.

Not really a great use case for anything. 85mph in black ice temps?

That's when we see those wild tire tracks spin off an overpass or curve. We always called those 'self clearing'. Because they're so off the road no one else has to stop.

-Crissa

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