Vehicle to Home (Ford Figured it Out)

[drcarric2650]

I don't think that Ford is planning to give us this option, I feel there is a reason that they haven't mention the cost and installation cost of the charger that allows for vehicle to house. Having said that, I would probably pay it.

It seems that this would open up Tesla to offer a power wall with the Vehicle to power wall charging. Yeah $7K, but I think it would be worth it, and may pay for itself eventually.

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[ajdelange]

I think they probably will. I expect the reason that they haven't released cost and other details is that all the details aren't ironed out yet. For comparison see the WallBox Quasar. This is a similar product but you can't (AFAIK) order it yet either.

 

[rodmacpherson]

From reading the last seven pages I make the following observations:

(1) Ford is touting the Vehicle to Home power setup as a selling point to sweeten the deal. Nothing more, nothing less. Most people who buy the truck will never need the VtoH feature.
I'm sure Fords legion of lawyers have weighed the liability issues of using the truck to power a home and have decided that it is worth the risk. Ford gets sued every day over all manner of issues. The fine print that will come with this will be long and hard to decipher. The onus of having the system installed to safely support this feature will be on the customer, not on Ford.

(2) Not everyone who buys a Lighting will be willing or financially able to pay to install the required safety system. My guess is you will not be able to finance that cost when buying the truck.

(3) For people living in apartments the system is useless. For people living in rental houses or condos they may not be able to remove the system once it has been installed when they move. There is also the issue of Home Owners Associations. Will they give someone flack about installing these systems? Some people live to mind other people's business.

(4) Codes, power companies and installers. On a good day dealing with local electrical codes can be a nightmare (which is why I live in the boondocks). This is something a DIY guy does not want to try unless they are licensed and bonded. Dealing with power companies can be an exercise in frustration depending on where you live. Finding an installer willing to do the work and accept the liability might be a challenge too.

(5) Insurance. I have already inquired about insuring my solar power system once it is installed. It is older technology but meets all codes. It will be installed by professionals. USAA said there would be no extra cost to insure the system itself but there may be a slight increase to cover the liability aspect if I go grid tie which I may or may not do due to being a slave to Alabama Power. Anyone thinking of installing the system should make the same inquiry about the liability issues with their insurance company. Some companies specialize in weaseling when it comes to paying claims. They have more lawyers than you do.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth.

Basically, what this boils down to is there will be lots of Ford charging stations with V2H equipment on the used market in 2 years new in box for ridiculously low prices as lots of people who buy the Platinum edition will be unable to install the equipment that came with the truck. For the rich few who can afford a $90k truck and have a second home (cottage, lake house, hunt camp...) and the money and capability to install 2 of these things, one at each location, that's going to be a nice deal.

Ford is only doing this because it will grab attention, they are taking advantage of the Texas incident to sell more trucks. It doesn't matter to them how practical it is, but if they tell you it comes ***Free with the platinum truck more people will reserve a platinum before looking into the logistics of actually installing this.

 

[Friday]

My prediction is the Ford® V2H® will require Ford® proprietary® equipment® to make it usable in an existing home requiring Ford® trained install personnel along with Ford® proprietary control box (likely an IOT® device requiring its own cell® service® for Ford® OTA® monitoring, diagnostics, activation and updates). This is likely to be a $$$® homeowner expense along with pulling permits for Ford® required electrical work. There may also be a recurring® subscription® fee® to keep the system active. Allegedly®.

 

[Crissa]

My prediction is the Ford® V2H® will require Ford® proprietary® equipment® ...

They already said it did.

But if it exists, then it can be hacked together by someone else.

This isn't exactly rocket science.

-Crissa

 

[ajdelange]

I think they probably will. I expect the reason that they haven't released cost and other details is that all the details aren't ironed out yet. For comparison see the WallBox Quasar. This is a similar product but you can't (AFAIK) order it yet either.

Some confirmation of my suspicion can be drawn from the following excerpt from an e-mail from WallBox in response to a query on my part about how anti-islanding is handled and which cars Quasar works with:

"As our engineers continue to develop Quasar for North America, we are working with North American utilities, auto manufacturers and other partners to test and validate Quasar and our bidirectional charging technology to ensure compatibility with regional electrical standards and with EV makes and models sold in North America. Indeed part of the future success of Quasar and bidirectional charging depends on more EVs being bidirectional-capable. When Quasar does arrive in the region, it will be an even better and more capable product than it is today."

 

[ajdelange]

My prediction is the Ford® V2H® will require Ford® proprietary® equipment® to make it usable in an existing home requiring Ford® trained install personnel along with Ford® proprietary control box (likely an IOT® device requiring its own cell® service® for Ford® OTA® monitoring, diagnostics, activation and updates). This is likely to be a $$$® homeowner expense along with pulling permits for Ford® required electrical work. There may also be a recurring® subscription® fee® to keep the system active. Allegedly®.

For V2H it isn't going to be that bad. V2G is a different matter. For V2H only anti-islanding is required and that problem is solved. It remains to get words into the NEC for this particular flavor of backup i.e. a vehicle battery as opposed to a generator, PV or fixed battery pack. The required software/firmware is not that sophisticated at least relative to that required for V2G. In V2H it is only necessary to reliably detect grid absence and isolate the vehicle (just as is currently done with PV, generators and Powerwalls). We will, of course, want the box to be programmable to not allow discharge of the car beyond some level etc. Thus it will have to communicate with the car and possibly the manufacturers mother ship. WiFi should suffice. The essential fact with V2H is that the car and house comprise the entire system. In V2G, by comparison, the car and house become part of a much larger system (the grid is included now) and control becomes a much more sophisticated matter. The utility decides when it needs your car to store power for it and the utility decides when to use your car for leveling.

 

[ajdelange]

Someone posted a video about the 150 which used some of Ford's marketing material. As a slide on the V2H feature whizzed by my eagle eye caught the bottom of the screen where I spied "*When equipped with a suitable transfer switch" or something very like. So that answers the question about how anti-islanding is realized in this system. It is just as one would do when hooking up a portable backup generator. There are lots of options here and it is commonly done so electrician expense, while it might be appreciable is not going to be astronomical.

The big question is as to whether the transfer switch is going to be 'whole house' or for selected priority circuits only. The code says that your backup source must be capable of serving all loads connected. I'm not sure how that is to be interpreted as obviously if one turned on every load in the house at once you'd have a demand that would pop the service disconnect even when on utility. Your electrician should know which way the wind blows in your jurisdiction with respect to what the inspectors will let you do. This system is supposed to be able to deliver 9.6 kW. That's quite a bit. Looking back over the last three months (2041 hours), which included quite a few cold days I drew 9.6 kW or more only 0.06% of the time (73 minutes) and while I can't say with certainty that every one of those minutes were during times that the car was being charged it's clear that most of them were the point being that obviously you won't be charging your car while using it as the power source for your house and thus drawing over 9.6 kW will be even rarer. Median demand was more like 2.6 kW. Thus unless you live in an Al Gore style mansion I'd say you would have a pretty good argument for a whole house transfer switch. That's going to require some re-wickering of your service equipment which, with the 100 A circuit to feed the wall box I'd WAG at $10k. Whole house is really nice but the selected priority circuit approach may be cheaper.

 

[ajdelange]

There's a lot of hashing going on today especially with respect to backup systems, EVSE, solar etc. It is only fairly recently that the "must power all connected loads" requirement came in and several of the generator manufacturers now sell automatic load shedding gear to accommodate it. There have been quite a few changes in the article which covers BEV as, for example, it is recognized that lead acid has been replaced by lithium so that hydrogen venting isn't so much of a problem. etc.

 

[Crissa]

This system is supposed to be able to deliver 9.6 kW.

This is only partially correct. That's the power of the on-board inverter, not the power rating of the Ford Charge Station Pro.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

The Cybertruck will have V2V (as long as you or the person with the flat battery brought their Mobile Connector along). Tesla has said the 240V outlet comes standard on all models. It's an extra on the Ford.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes that's "V2V" but it's V2V in quotes. Rivian says, or said (does anyone know if it is still on) it would offer V2V. I wonder how they are going to implement it. Their AC outlets are only 120 so that it would take forever to charge via that. Even with 220 in the Tesla it's Level 2. But I see all sorts of issues with going battery bus to battery bus.

 

[rr6013]

Yes that's "V2V" but it's V2V in quotes. Rivian says, or said (does anyone know if it is still on) it would offer V2V. I wonder how they are going to implement it. Their AC outlets are only 120 so that it would take forever to charge via that. Even with 220 in the Tesla it's Level 2. But I see all sorts of issues with going battery bus to battery bus.

PDU—PDU?

 

[ajdelange]

PDU—PDU?

Sorry. What’s a PDU?

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