Cybertruck Trailer Hitch/Casting Failure @10,400 lbs *VERTICAL LOAD*

[cybercricket]

I think you're mixing 1,100 tounge on a 11k trailer and 100k tongue (versus 100k trailer with 10k tongue).

Regardless, a 11k trailer with 1,100 tongue needs less than 9gs to produce 10k pounds at the hitch. A 1,100 pound trailer with all mass at tongue would need 9gs.

Well, you forced me to go back and see what he posted :

Are you saying CT frame snapping at 10,000 lbs makes it unsafe to tow 10,000 lbs trailer? That’s an absolutely ridiculous conclusion with no scientific basis. If this were true, under/over steering is a bigger problem before the hitch snaps. 10,000 lbs hitch breaking point means CT can technically handle a trailer of 100,000 lbs!

So you tell me now, am I mixing something ?

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[Cyber Man]

Without going to the previous page(s) I vaguely recall you introduced the number 100,000lb and that's what I disagreed with. You were mixing dynamic and static rating comparisons. Here is the basic physics to help with that :

Since the F (force) = m (mass) a (acceleration)

F (max) = 4536 (10,000lb) * 9.8 (g) = 44452.8 N

that's basically the maximum force the receiver will take regardless of the other variables.

a (max) = 44452.8 / 499 (1,1000lb) = 89 m/s (exactly 9g)

That's the acceleration at which 1,100lb will exert equivalent force of 10,000lb under its own weight. For 100,000lb the maximum acceleration is then :

a (max) = 44452.8 / 4990 = 8.9m/s

Which is probably impossible on Earth

I was referring to 100,000 lbs as the trailer weight. If you watch the BeardedTesla video, he pretty much says the same. Tongue weight is at the ballpark of 10% to 15% of Trailer weight, and that “includes” dynamic load on the Hitch. In the above video, his calculation is in the ballpark of 100,000 lbs limit. He says 10,000 lbs tongue weight failure limit means the Truck towing limit is 3.5 times the limit of F450, which translates to 3.5 times 30,000 lbs. OEMs don’t put that because 10,000 lbs tongue weight exceeds axle loads that can cause over/under steering. CT has already towed close to 100,000 lbs in the famous sled pull test (video that I shared above).

Your calculation of Force is not how science works with Towing. You are omitting friction coefficient with surface contact. People have pulled 150 ton train with their shoulder!

 

[cybercricket]

I was referring to 100,000 lbs as the trailer weight. If you watch the BeardedTesla video, he pretty much says the same. Tongue weight is at the ballpark of 10% to 15% of Trailer weight, and that “includes” dynamic load on the Hitch. In the above video, his calculation is in the ballpark of 100,000 lbs limit. He says 10,000 lbs tongue weight failure limit means the Truck towing limit is 3.5 times the limit of F450, which translates to 3.5 times 30,000 lbs. OEMs don’t put that because 10,000 lbs tongue weight exceeds axle loads that can cause over/under steering. CT has already towed close to 100,000 lbs in the famous sled pull test (video that I shared above).

Your calculation of Force is not how science works with Towing. You are omitting friction coefficient with surface contact. People have pulled 150 ton train with their shoulder!

Sounds like you're still confused @mongo got you covered though

 

[cybercricket]

Here’s a great video that explains what I’m saying above way better. In that video, he mentions that 10K lbs failure point means Cybertruck is 3.5 times better than F450 Towing limit!! As I said above, 1,100 lbs Tongue Weight does account for Dynamic load of the 11,000 lbs trailer. OEMs do skip plate testing and check for under/over steer failures to figure out Tongue weight.

It’s important to educate ourselves on how towing and tongue weight works instead of basing analysis on false theories or imaginary physics.

The guy in the video is hilarious : "All of this force is coming down on the hitch, there is nothing to counter balance it..." - while drawing a trailer with TWO spread out axles. The main reason for limiting the tongue weight is that we typically deal with trailers that have any number of axles acting as a pivot point, thus trailer being able to tip forward and exert downward forces onto the receiver. If the trailer has spread out axles, like found in construction and military trailers, then there would be pretty much zero tongue weight besides the weight of the attachment, all forces would be horizontal.

 

[mongo]

Tongue weight is at the ballpark of 10% to 15% of Trailer weight, and that “includes” dynamic load on the Hitch.

The vehicle is built to handle a 11k trailer and 1,100 tongue. That does not mean the maximum load on the tongue in a dynamic situation is 1,100 pounds. BTG has some errors in his posts and videos.

 

[Cyber Man]

Sounds like you're still confused @mongo got you covered though

No I have spent months researching on these things for my previous rig. You are the one confused ?. Towing and Tongue weight are separate but related once the Tow Vehicle takes the downward force of the Tongue! You and @mongo are assuming OEM Tongue Weight is static load, and that’s simply not true. All OEMs consider Dynamic load of “normal driving” while calculating the Tongue Weight. It’s a huge safety risk if they don’t consider. If they don’t, it’ll cause under/over steering. This is a much bigger problem!

 

[mongo]

The guy in the video is hilarious : "All of this force is coming down on the hitch, there is nothing to counter balance it..." - while drawing a trailer with TWO spread out axles. The main reason for limiting the tongue weight is that we typically deal with trailers that have any number of axles acting as a pivot point, thus trailer being able to tip forward and exert downward forces onto the receiver. If the trailer has spread out axles, like found in construction and military trailers, then there would be pretty much zero tongue weight besides the weight of the attachment, all forces would be horizontal.

Only if you have something like a hay cart with front and rear axles plus a draw bar would the tongue weight be zero.
Dual/ triple axles are for load capacity. The equalizers cause the axle set to act similarly to a single axle at the center of the group. There is still an unbalanced torque (tongue weight).

 

[mongo]

No I have spent months researching on these things for my previous rig. You are the one confused ?. Towing and Tongue weight are separate but related once the Tow Vehicle takes the downward force of the Tongue! You and @mongo are assuming OEM Tongue Weight is static load, and that’s simply not true. All OEMs consider Dynamic load of “normal driving” while calculating the Tongue Weight. It’s a huge safety risk if they don’t consider. If they don’t, it’ll cause under/over steering. This is a much bigger problem!

The 1,100 pound number is the static weight on the tongue.
The vehicle design accounts for the dynamic load which depends on total trailer mass. Around 6k for an 11k trailer.

 

[cybercricket]

Only if you have something like a hay cart with front and rear axles plus a draw bar would the tongue weight be zero.
Dual/ triple axles are for load capacity. The equalizers cause the axle set to act similarly to a single axle at the center of the group. There is still an unbalanced torque (tongue weight).

 

[mongo]

? Exactly!

 

[Cyber Man]

The 1,100 pound number is the static weight on the tongue.
The vehicle design accounts for the dynamic load which depends on total trailer mass. Around 6k for an 11k trailer.

Where is that 6K number coming from? That exceeds the axle loads if you are having passengers and some cargo in the bed.

Look guys, if you drive off a cliff with 10,000 lbs trailer, of course the tongue weight will exceed 1000 lbs when the Tow Vehicle contacts the ground. We are talking about normal driving conditions on paved roads with bumps. The vehicles are rated well within the specs. In all my previous posts, I mention about skid plate testing and axle loads allowed to avoid under/over steering. Some of you are just talking about physics in theory.

I can tow a regular two axle 10,000 lbs RV trailer and have only 600 lbs Tongue weight with the right Weight Distribution system. I have done that a few times. That’s how Andy from Can-am is able to Tow 23’ trailer that’s 6000 lbs with Model 3. Do you think a Model 3 will survive anything more than 600 lbs of Tongue weight?

 

[mongo]

Where is that 6K number coming from? That exceeds the axle loads if you are having passengers and some cargo in the bed.

Look guys, if you drive off a cliff with 10,000 lbs trailer, of course the tongue weight will exceed 1000 lbs when the Tow Vehicle contacts the ground. We are talking about normal driving conditions on paved roads with bumps. The vehicles are rated well within the specs. In all my previous posts, I mention about skid plate testing and axle loads allowed to avoid under/over steering. Some of you are just talking about physics in theory.

I can tow a regular two axle 10,000 lbs RV trailer and have only 600 lbs Tongue weight with the right Weight Distribution system. I have done that a few times. That’s how Andy from Can-am is able to Tow 23’ trailer that’s 6000 lbs with Model 3. Do you think a Model 3 will survive anything more than 600 lbs of Tongue weight?

6k is the SAE J684 and European trailer test load for hitch systems.
It's a dynamic force, not a static load.
Image two balanced teeter totters. One is empty. One has 5,000 pounds on each end.
Move each 15 degrees in 1 second. Does one require more force to do this than the other?
Put another way, both are moving at 15 degrees per second, pick one of them and put your foot between it and the ground. Which do you pick?

 

[cybercricket]

Where is that 6K number coming from? That exceeds the axle loads if you are having passengers and some cargo in the bed.

Look guys, if you drive off a cliff with 10,000 lbs trailer, of course the tongue weight will exceed 1000 lbs when the Tow Vehicle contacts the ground. We are talking about normal driving conditions on paved roads with bumps. The vehicles are rated well within the specs. In all my previous posts, I mention about skid plate testing and axle loads allowed to avoid under/over steering. Some of you are just talking about physics in theory.

I can tow a regular two axle 10,000 lbs RV trailer and have only 600 lbs Tongue weight with the right Weight Distribution system. I have done that a few times. That’s how Andy from Can-am is able to Tow 23’ trailer that’s 6000 lbs with Model 3. Do you think a Model 3 will survive anything more than 600 lbs of Tongue weight?

What weight distribution system would that be ? A weight distribution hitch will not decrease the tongue weight.

 

[Cyber Man]

6k is the SAE J684 and European trailer test load for hitch systems.
It's a dynamic force, not a static load.
Image two balanced teeter totters. One is empty. One has 5,000 pounds on each end.
Move each 15 degrees in 1 second. Does one require more force to do this than the other?
Put another way, both are moving at 15 degrees per second, pick one of them and put your foot between it and the ground. Which do you pick?

I don’t know. We should ask these guys.

 

[Cyber Man]

What weight distribution system would that be ? A weight distribution hitch will not decrease the tongue weight.

It does, depending on how you measure Tongue weight. Use this next time with any Weight Distribution hitch to see how much your Tow Vehicle Hitch is taking the tongue weight. Lowering Tongue Weight means transferring the load to front axles.

https://www.weigh-safe.com/product/steel-weigh-safe-drop-hitch/

I use Hensley Hitch, but any regular WD hitch would do.

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