The Exoskeleton

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FullyGrounded

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don't forget that its the frame bending that prevents you getting hurt.... that's where the energy is dissipated. if vehicles were made to not crumple, you'd look like a splash of mayonnaise on the inside of a shaken jar in an accident.
I know all too well, sir. I was a firefighter/EMT since the attack on us on 9/11. And, have been on many vehicle crashes and the like. I understand what impacts can do, I assure you.

This truck was, at one time, thought of as a wonder. To some it still is, to others, we have had time to question. Now, with all the time we have to pontificate; is it truly best to have the strength right there at the point of impact? Consider a light impact, a bicyclist runs into you... you dent the bicyclist. What is the net loss to the bicyclist, Do they even survive running into this beast (haha)? End first test.

Consider heavy impact, an F350 hits you "T-boned" doing 60mph (you're stopped, waiting for the red light in traffic, speed upon impact is 60mph right into your B-post. At this speed, my questions here are, what is supposed to happen, what actually happens, what is the loss sustained by me, and what is the loss sustained by them? End second test.

Consider very heavy impact, a loaded (35,000lb load) semi truck doing 70mph on the interstate crosses the center and hits you head on. You're doing 65mph, leading to an effective rate of 135mph at impact. The semi hits at the driver's front corner, 30 degrees left of center. This will involve all of the frontal crumple ability of the CT, as this semi will have massive momentum. What is supposed to happen, what actually happens, what is the loss sustained by me, and what is the loss sustained by them? End third test.

People may try to just deflect this by saying look at the NHTSA reports, but this is the real world, and these are real possibilities. NHTSA is meant to evaluate apples to apples, oranges to oranges. I'm not interested in tests that may or may not truly test the effectiveness of a vehicle in today's real world, with today's new metals and changing conditions. I also want to see a CT take an impact, then be evaluated how much Tesla will charge to fix said damage. From what I hear, Tesla doesn't sell parts to other shops to allow others to fix their vehicles. This could be helpful, but it also requires us to rely on them to be fair. Sigh. peace
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Crissa

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... Consider heavy impact, an F350 hits you "T-boned" doing 60mph...

... Consider very heavy impact, a loaded (35,000lb load) semi truck doing 70mph on the interstate crosses the center and hits you head on.
These impacts may be typical, but no vehicle can survive them. We do not know how to make vehicles capable of dismissing that much energy. So why mention them?

Consider a light impact, a bicyclist runs into you...
...And triggers the rebound of the bumper and flexes the steel. That they would have dented the mild steel of another vehicle doesn't change the severity of their injuries: steel just doesn't have enough give to save human flesh.

You hope they hit the bumper so it could deflect some of the energy. The rebound of the hardened steel might allow it to flex more than the mild steel - like landing on a spring instead of a soda can - but mostly you have to make sure the bumpers bounce at human forces instead of only at vehicle-rated ones.

-Crissa
 

jerhenderson

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Yeah, it's really too bad nobody ever thought to put a strap of some kind in a car that belted you down to the seat. Would really make a difference.
that only stops you from flying around the inside of the cabin or from being ejected.....if you're in a solid vehicle that didn't crumple the energy transfer in an impact to and through your body would kill you.
 

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I know all too well, sir. I was a firefighter/EMT since the attack on us on 9/11. And, have been on many vehicle crashes and the like. I understand what impacts can do, I assure you.

This truck was, at one time, thought of as a wonder. To some it still is, to others, we have had time to question. Now, with all the time we have to pontificate; is it truly best to have the strength right there at the point of impact? Consider a light impact, a bicyclist runs into you... you dent the bicyclist. What is the net loss to the bicyclist, Do they even survive running into this beast (haha)? End first test.

Consider heavy impact, an F350 hits you "T-boned" doing 60mph (you're stopped, waiting for the red light in traffic, speed upon impact is 60mph right into your B-post. At this speed, my questions here are, what is supposed to happen, what actually happens, what is the loss sustained by me, and what is the loss sustained by them? End second test.

Consider very heavy impact, a loaded (35,000lb load) semi truck doing 70mph on the interstate crosses the center and hits you head on. You're doing 65mph, leading to an effective rate of 135mph at impact. The semi hits at the driver's front corner, 30 degrees left of center. This will involve all of the frontal crumple ability of the CT, as this semi will have massive momentum. What is supposed to happen, what actually happens, what is the loss sustained by me, and what is the loss sustained by them? End third test.

People may try to just deflect this by saying look at the NHTSA reports, but this is the real world, and these are real possibilities. NHTSA is meant to evaluate apples to apples, oranges to oranges. I'm not interested in tests that may or may not truly test the effectiveness of a vehicle in today's real world, with today's new metals and changing conditions. I also want to see a CT take an impact, then be evaluated how much Tesla will charge to fix said damage. From what I hear, Tesla doesn't sell parts to other shops to allow others to fix their vehicles. This could be helpful, but it also requires us to rely on them to be fair. Sigh. peace
oh we will..... and consistent with other Tesla's it'll likely be a top 5 vehicle in safety ratings.
 


Crissa

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that only stops you from flying around the inside of the cabin or from being ejected.....if you're in a solid vehicle that didn't crumple the energy transfer in an impact to and through your body would kill you.
Exactly why military jets seat their passengers facing the rear.

https://www.airspacemag.com/need-to-know/are-aft-facing-airplane-seats-safer-146695292/

My high-school science teacher taught a section on this; he was a technical specialist in the Army Air Corp in WWII (he was ancient, even for thirty years ago) about accidents where a craft had come off the runway and hit an object, but the plane's body survived the stop, tho the wings came off. The plane had just stopped so fast that everyone on board died, all buckled into their seats. They all had a ruptured aorta or vena cava.

-Crissa
 

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Exactly why military jets seat their passengers facing the rear.

https://www.airspacemag.com/need-to-know/are-aft-facing-airplane-seats-safer-146695292/

My high-school science teacher taught a section on this; he was a technical specialist in the Army Air Corp in WWII (he was ancient, even for thirty years ago) about accidents where a craft had come off the runway and hit an object, but the plane's body survived the stop, tho the wings came off. The plane had just stopped so fast that everyone on board died, all buckled into their seats. They all had a ruptured aorta or vena cava.

-Crissa
yeah it's like being close to a bomb..... the heat or debris may not kill you, but the shockwave will destroy your organs.
 

rr6013

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We do understand that the frame is like the backbone of the vehicle, right? And, now, we've taken and moved that from the protected, to that which protects and will take the brunt of damage.

Now, they will also crease it to allow for it to crumple. You've just made my back weaker. And, off road, that is so critical. Frames will flex if they can. Well, will it crumple? So many questions that Elon and physics need to answer. I'm, right now, not sold on an exoskeleton. I'm sure there are those that will beat on this exoskeleton body, and then we will see what the result is.
IF Cybertruck exoskeleton doesn’t flex, I’m pissed some engineer over-spec’d it. Like a bridge truss it’s meant to do work, flexing under load stress.

The whole inside or outside debate is going back to the pyramid argument Pharoahs had over exposed triangles. Function over form first principles accepts crumple zones, alloys and engineered thicknesses at the expense of preserving form at all costs.

Unspoken in a body on frame design is that energy transfer is passed into the body by the frame. Crumple zone or No, vehicles totaled precisely because the frame caused the body to triangle out of its original shape from force of impact.

Exoskeleton adds one HUGE layer of protection Body-on-Frame cannot match - side impact.
 

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I asked about this a long time ago. What I don't get, the doors weak spots are the latch and the hinge. I really want to see the test truck damage front corner offset and side impact tests. I have faith that they will do right by us. I honestly believe that Musk wants to make something great. The world was a better place when we had one man running a company just wanted to make their product the best they could (instead of companies just trying to make as much money as they can) this is the reason I love Tesla.
 

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I am no lawyer and the safety regulations are their own art, but at the risk of being wrong, I do not think the body on frame medium trucks meet occupant protection standards and what I can find on light trucks indicates they flat out flunk most of the newer (like frontal offset) tests. It would seem one requirement for the CyberTruck's size is to be exempt from the regulations which require energy absorption. .... Just about every bus I've ever been on is full of hard surfaces, lack shoulder belts and are generally a hazardous place to be in a wreck.
 


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Non exoskeleton vehicles are written off regularly due to bent frames in accidents, even minor ones. I don't understand your concern here whatsoever.
Not only that, I'm 58 years old and have been doing crazy things in trucks on and off-road, cars on and off-road and motorcycles on and off road since I learned to drive at age 15 and I haven't wadded one up yet!

But I have insurance in case I do. That's what insurance is for.
 

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I've read the OP and the comments and the one thing I didn't see is the prevalence of insurance companies totalling cars these days. If the damage is of a certain type or goes over some limit they total the car and it seems to be getting easier and easier for them to make the call. So it might not matter whether its an endo or exo skeleton vehicle, whether or not it is repairable or to what degree.
 

firsttruck

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I am no lawyer and the safety regulations are their own art, but at the risk of being wrong, I do not think the body on frame medium trucks meet occupant protection standards and what I can find on light trucks indicates they flat out flunk most of the newer (like frontal offset) tests. It would seem one requirement for the CyberTruck's size is to be exempt from the regulations which require energy absorption. .... Just about every bus I've ever been on is full of hard surfaces, lack shoulder belts and are generally a hazardous place to be in a wreck.

Based on Elon's & Tesla's past goals we are expecting Cybertruck to be much safer than other trucks. Sandy Munro said it was possible for stainless steel exoskeleton to have crush zones just like those in passenger cars.

The Cybertruck legally might be exempt but that does not mean Tesla is NOT going to build Cybertruck to pass passenger car level crash standards.

We do not know yet about the Cybertruck but it is possible.
 

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What I don't get, the doors weak spots are the latch and the hinge.
These components articulate with 1 degree of freedom, in horizontal plane. Yet they aren’t critical to safety.

What provides side impact safety is the strength of the B-pillar. That forms the frame against which the force of impact is translated. A-pillar, B-pillar resistance enables the body to preserve the integrity of the frame opening in which the door sits when closed. Additionally, inside the door a side impact beam resists the inward collapse tendency during impact.

Together, B-pillar, rocker panel, door frame, door, impact beam and A-pillar function as a unit to resist force intrusion into the passenger compartment. This unit collapses at the moment any one of its components catastrophically fail. Door hinge and door latches are not contributors to failure, even though broken in a crash.

Weakest from observed hulks that I’ve seen is the rocker panel. Down low subject to the highest mass concentration at velocity, rocker panels are afforded the least combined force resistance when the force is in and downward.

Cybertruck affords an exponential increase in structural battery pack frame resistence at the rocker panel level compared to any ICE frame on body vehicle. Exoskeleton is all frame at the point of impact forming a protective shell around the passenger compartment. Body on frame has feet to collapse before meeting frame resistance.
 
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Consider that Elon refers to aircraft often when he's talking about the exoskeleton concept. What he doesn't talk about is that when the exoskeleton is damaged on an aircraft, it's often catastrophically so. And, this gives no helpful information as to how much it's going to cost to fix, what a simple fender bender did damage-wise. There is still so much yet unknown. And, we aren't hearing what we aren't hearing. peace
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